Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[JesusIsSovereign]

JIS,

Thank you so much for your encouragement. I do not feel as alone with this hermeneutic on Christian Chat as I have in most churches I have attended.

Frankly, I think many Christians prefer singing, praying, story-telling and entertaining sermons over systematic Bible study because they require less mental work.

I believe God allows suffering in order to teach folks their need of His heaven, but it is better for them to learn this before a tragic event occurs rather than during it.

I know that in my own experience growing up in a Christian environment until high school, I was rather complacent about witnessing and naive regarding what lay outside my bubble, but I was chagrined to find out that my favorite HS English teacher was a former minister turned agnostic, and a missionary's daughter became an atheist, which made me realize that the weekly evangelistic sermons were not adequately teaching the need for perseverance--and that motivated me to begin studying the Bible through for myself.

Do you relate to this?

Yes, I do. It's encouraging for me as well to know that someone (and that someone being you) is able to rationlize

Jesus and the apostles read and followed the OT the God of the OT is the same God of the NT and He says He changes not. This poster said the NT replaced the OT and that is not true, it is a continuation of God's holy Word, that He said is the path to guide us Psa 119:10-5

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Where did he say the NT replaced the OT?

 

[GWH]

Whoever taught you this is wrong. Jesus and the apostles didn't re-interpret the Old Testament, they taught on it and lived by it. Jesus fulfilled what was written about Him and many more things to fulfill like the Second Coming as shown in the Prophets like Isaiah , Ezekiel, Malachi, Daniel etc.

Jesus said:
John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

The same people who don't believe what Moses wrote don't believe Jesus- they may believe in Him, but not what He lived or what He taught including Mat 4:4 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 and so forth and so forth

Regarding John 5:46, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." Thank you for providing a verse indicating how Jesus interpreted the OT in light of the NT.

An example of Paul doing so is found in GL 4:21-31. Another is RM 2:17-29. In RM 3 Paul explains that the Jews were entrusted with the OT law for the purpose of leading them to the NT Gospel of Christ, and he asks at the end, "Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law." HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the OT law is superseded by NT grace. IOW, we should interpret the OT in light of the NT.

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

JIS,

Thank you so much for your encouragement. I do not feel as alone with this hermeneutic on Christian Chat as I have in most churches I have attended.

Frankly, I think many Christians prefer singing, praying, story-telling and entertaining sermons over systematic Bible study because they require less mental work.

I believe God allows suffering in order to teach folks their need of His heaven, but it is better for them to learn this before a tragic event occurs rather than during it.

I know that in my own experience growing up in a Christian environment until high school, I was rather complacent about witnessing and naive regarding what lay outside my bubble, but I was chagrined to find out that my favorite HS English teacher was a former minister turned agnostic, and a missionary's daughter became an atheist, which made me realize that the weekly evangelistic sermons were not adequately teaching the need for perseverance--and that motivated me to begin studying the Bible through for myself.

Do you relate to this?

Yes, I do. It's encouraging for me as well to know that someone (and that someone being you) is able to rationalize with logic and understanding without letting emotions get in the way while realizing that we are fallible in understanding as well. I can relate to this very well; I have a family where it seems that I'm the only one who is able to trust God without emotions in the way. Also, it seems that I'm the only one in my family that has a want to engage in theological Biblical discussions and my family doesn't want to take the time to talk about those things. It might be because of the reason you suggested, "I think many Christians prefer singing, praying, story-telling and entertaining sermons over systematic Bible study because they require less mental work." This is certainly true at my church, which has about 1,000 people, and my family I believe also doesn't want to take the time to talk about such deep theological topics because it might offend what they believe in which they hold to these beliefs very strongly and are strongly, EMOTIONALLY attached to them. I've bet you heard or at least heard something like, "why study theology? Isn't experiencing God better than knowing the deep theological things?".

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Yes, I do. It's encouraging for me as well to know that someone (and that someone being you) is able to rationlize
Where did he say the NT replaced the OT?

He said it superseded it which means replaced
(1) Apologetics: witnessing to atheists - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Its not a replacement, the NT is a continuation of God's Word

 

[GWH]

Jesus and the apostles read and followed the OT the God of the OT is the same God of the NT and He says He changes not. This poster said the NT replaced the OT and that is not true, it is a continuation of God's holy Word, that He said is the path to guide us Psa 119:10-5

Stated before the NT was even written
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness,

God's standard of righteousness does not change Psa 119:172 His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

All Scripture includes the NT, which should serve as one's rubric for interpreting the OT. Christians do not kick against this goad. (cf. ACTS 26:14-18)

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

He said it superseded it which means replaced
(1) Apologetics: witnessing to atheists - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Its not a replacement, the NT is a continuation of God's Word

(My two different posts got mixed up.) So, I can't agree that the NT surpasses the OT in authority, but I can agree that Jesus' death and fulfillment fulfilled the OT ceremonial laws and that we are free to wear mixed fabrics and don't have to sacrifice animals for sins.

 

[GWH]

Yes, I do. It's encouraging for me as well to know that someone (and that someone being you) is able to rationalize with logic and understanding without letting emotions get in the way while realizing that we are fallible in understanding as well. I can relate to this very well; I have a family where it seems that I'm the only one who is able to trust God without emotions in the way. Also, it seems that I'm the only one in my family that has a want to engage in theological Biblical discussions and my family doesn't want to take the time to talk about those things. It might be because of the reason you suggested, "I think many Christians prefer singing, praying, story-telling and entertaining sermons over systematic Bible study because they require less mental work." This is certainly true at my church, which has about 1,000 people, and my family I believe also doesn't want to take the time to talk about such deep theological topics because it might offend what they believe in which they hold to these beliefs very strongly and are strongly, EMOTIONALLY attached to them. I've bet you heard or at least heard something like, "why study theology? Isn't experiencing God better than knowing the deep theological things?".

Well, my quest/hunger for learning more of GW after "walking the aisle" has been long and I have published what I have learned on a website <truthseekersfellowship.com> where I say that my reason for writing it is simply to share my fallible faith with others, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth. As truthseekers, whenever we encounter someone who has a contradictory understanding, we want to learn which is the better belief, to admit when we are wrong, and to change our opinion. As people-lovers we want to share our knowledge with other truthseekers, so that we may fellowship (2TM 4:3-4, 1JN 1:3).

 

[GWH]

(My two different posts got mixed up.) So, I can't agree that the NT surpasses the OT in authority, but I can agree that Jesus' death and fulfillment fulfilled the OT ceremonial laws and that we are free to wear mixed fabrics and don't have to sacrifice animals for sins.

Don't say that until after you read HB 7:18-10:1, if you dare to disagree with that Scripture! Christ has more authority than Moses! Jesus is Sovereign; Moses merely human!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Regarding John 5:46, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." Thank you for providing a verse indicating how Jesus interpreted the OT in light of the NT.

An example of Paul doing so is found in GL 4:21-31. Another is RM 2:17-29. In RM 3 Paul explains that the Jews were entrusted with the OT law for the purpose of leading them to the NT Gospel of Christ, and he asks at the end, "Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law." HB 7:18-10:1 explains that the OT law is superseded by NT grace. IOW, we should interpret the OT in light of the NT.

Not what Paul or Jesus taught, The only thing that changed with God's law is where it was placed, from tables of stone to tablets of the heart Exo 34:28 Heb 8:10

The only laws that changed according to scriptures are the commandments contained in ordinances- that had to do with the earthy sanctuary Heb 9:9-10 Eph 3:13 Col 2:14-17 not the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath commandment, that started at Creation, when God made everything good..

God of the OT said He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 they stand sure forever and ever Psa 111:7-8 why God of the NT -Jesus- taught not a dot or tittle can pass from His law until ALL- all means all is fulfilled and that is when Jesus comes in the clouds.

I'm sorry you do not understand grace- it does not give us freedom to sin, we all have sinned and deserve death, that's why no one is saved by the law, we are saved by grace through faith. Do those with faith no longer obey God? No. Does grace mean we can sin? Why would someone in Christ why to live with sin any longer? Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 His version, not mans.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

(My two different posts got mixed up.) So, I can't agree that the NT surpasses the OT in authority, but I can agree that Jesus' death and fulfillment fulfilled the OT ceremonial laws and that we are free to wear mixed fabrics and don't have to sacrifice animals for sins.

Amen, the commandments contained in ordinances, the ceremonial law was fulfilled in Christ. Heb 9:9-10 Eph 3:13 Col 2:14-17 as it all pointed forward to Christ sacrifice who became our Passover Lamb. Heb 10:1-22 1 Cor 5:7 The moral law, stands forever Psa 111:7-8 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-30 Rev 22:14 John 14:15 Exo 20:6

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Don't say that until after you read HB 7:18-10:1, if you dare to disagree with that Scripture! Christ has more authority than Moses! Jesus is Sovereign; Moses merely human!

Yet you claim Jesus was a sinner and broke the commandments. You disagree with most of the teachings of Jesus including Mat 4:4

You don't understand the New Covenant and keep trying to force it to be established on better promises that God said it is established on Heb 8:6, not better/new laws, it still has God's law His version, just went from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart, with Him giving us His power to perform if we cooperate with Him through faith and love. You can't make something perfect converting the soul, written by our Perfect Savior more perfect. Hence why Jesus said I did not come to destroy the law- not a jot or tittle can pass, breaking the least of these commandments comes with some ramifications I would consider believing Jesus at His Word.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Don't say that until after you read HB 7:18-10:1, if you dare to disagree with that Scripture! Christ has more authority than Moses! Jesus is Sovereign; Moses merely human!

Moses was a type of Christ and why Jesus mentioned him so much in the NT. Moses is mentioned 80 times in the NT.

There are many parallels from Moses leading people out of Egypt (the devils control) to their promise land. What the Israelites did, God's chosen people who most rebelled is what Christ is trying to do with us now to lead us into our Promise Land which is heaven. Sadly most rebel too against God Rom 8:7-8 not much has changed, but if we allow God to be God and to be King who wrote His own laws with His own finger and called them "My commandments" and we place our faith in Him to obey Him, not to be saved but through love and faith, we too can be lead on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14 versus outside Rev 22:15 like many of the Israelites who also disobeyed Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 that we are told not to follow their path of disobedience Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11

 

[GWH]

Not what Paul or Jesus taught, The only thing that changed with God's law is where it was placed, from tables of stone to tablets of the heart Exo 34:28 Heb 8:10

The only laws that changed according to scriptures are the commandments contained in ordinances- that had to do with the earthy sanctuary Heb 9:9-10 Eph 3:13 Col 2:14-17 not the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath commandment, that started at Creation, when God made everything good..

God of the OT said He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 they stand sure forever and ever Psa 111:7-8 why God of the NT -Jesus- taught not a dot or tittle can pass from His law until ALL- all means all is fulfilled and that is when Jesus comes in the clouds.

I'm sorry you do not understand grace- it does not give us freedom to sin, we all have sinned and deserve death, that's why no one is saved by the law, we are saved by grace through faith. Do those with faith no longer obey God? No. Does grace mean we can sin? Why would someone in Christ why to live with sin any longer? Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 His version, not mans.

God's law of love lives in the hearts of Christians (RM 5:5), the OT sacrificial system fulfills its purpose and is superseded by the NT gospel of grace (HB 7:18-10:1), and obeying a myriad of OT commandments is changed to manifesting the fruit of the Spirit/love in its various manifestations (GL 5:22-23).

 

[SabbathBlessing]

God's law of love lives in the hearts of Christians (RM 5:5), the OT sacrificial system fulfills its purpose and is superseded by the NT gospel of grace (HB 7:18-10:1), and obeying a myriad of OT commandments is changed to manifesting the fruit of the Spirit/love in its various manifestations (GL 5:22-23).

There is no sacrificial laws in the Ten Commandments- God's law of love. Exo 20:6 John 14:15 John 15:10 1 John 5:3-4 Rom 13:9

The sacrificial system was for breaking God's law until the Seed, which is Jesus, now when we sin and break God's law, we can go directly to Jesus when we confess and forsake our sins 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13 when Jesus gives grace- forgives us- He says go and sin not more- He puts us back under the law because He does not what His children to sin 1 John 1:1 because that shows we belong to another 1 John 3:8 if we continue down this pass, not submitting to God's will- His law Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 there will remain no more sacrifices for sin Heb 10:26-30. The choose is ours which path we end up on even if we don't realize it- Rom 6:16

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Don't say that until after you read HB 7:18-10:1, if you dare to disagree with that Scripture! Christ has more authority than Moses! Jesus is Sovereign; Moses merely human!

Christ does have more authority than Moses. Also, it says that the new covenant is better than the old covenant. I don't see anywhere in what verses you have shown me that it says explicitly that the NT has more authority than the OT.

 

[GWH]

Moses was a type of Christ and why Jesus mentioned him so much in the NT. Moses is mentioned 80 times in the NT.

There are many parallels from Moses leading people out of Egypt (the devils control) to their promise land. What the Israelites did, God's chosen people who most rebelled is what Christ is trying to do with us now to lead us into our Promise Land which is heaven. Sadly most rebel too against God Rom 8:7-8 not much has changed, but if we allow God to be God and to be King who wrote His own laws with His own finger and called them "My commandments" and we place our faith in Him to obey Him, not to be saved but through love and faith, we too can be lead on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14 versus outside Rev 22:15 like many of the Israelites who also disobeyed Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 that we are told not to follow their path of disobedience Heb 4:6 Heb 4:11

Yes, Moses foreshadowed Christ, and we should not doubt that his attitude would be the same as expressed by John the Baptist in MT 3:11, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry, and He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

There is no sacrificial laws in the Ten Commandments- God's law of love. Exo 20:6 John 14:15 John 15:10 1 John 5:3-4 Rom 13:9

To obey all of the Ten Commandments, you will have to sacrifice. There is a cost to following Jesus.

 

[GWH]

Christ does have more authority than Moses. Also, it says that the new covenant is better than the old covenant. I don't see anywhere in what verses you have shown me that it says explicitly that the NT has more authority than the OT.

Huh? Testament = Covenant, better = more authority, and Jesus is Sovereign reigns over Moses/mere humans.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Moses was a type of Christ and why Jesus mentioned him so much in the NT. Moses is mentioned 80 times in the NT.

Moses was a type of the law. That's why he was not allowed to enter the promised land, ie the law is unable to lead God's people into perfection. Joshua, which is the Hebrew word for Jesus, is the type of Christ who led Israel into their inheritance. The law can only bring us to death, which is typified by Moses leading Israel to the Jordan River (which symbolizes the barrier of death), but no farther

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Huh? Testament = Covenant, better = more authority, and Jesus is Sovereign reigns over Moses/mere humans.

Jesus is better than Moses. Moses said what God commanded Him to say. Moses was merely a vessel used by God and Jesus, who is God, surpasses Him in authority.