Understanding God’s election
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No I’m not “suggesting “ much of what you have understood me to say I’m not a great communicator.
But when you chop scriptures in half , already plucking them from the context of a prophesy about Israel….it’s problematic for me because I know the context .
Did adam ( both make and female ) have a choice regarding the fruit ?
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
But when you chop scriptures in half , already plucking them from the context of a prophesy about Israel….it’s problematic for me because I know the context .
Did adam ( both make and female ) have a choice regarding the fruit ?
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
oir nature is good and evil because adam and eve ate the fruit we arent supposed to have both, that conflict inside of us between good and evil is the issue and is what is creating the choice itself. we are meant to only listen to what god said and not be led astray by what satan says. this becomes the choice of every man.
will i believe gods word and follow his will expressed in the gospel? if i will then he can make me able thats what the gospel declares to us.
or will i reject what he said and did in the gospel and make my own way ? if i do , the destination will be what he has made so clear.
man wasnt created sinners and corrupt were made that way by rejecting gods way and listening to a lie which led to man trying to make our own way be our own gods knowing good and evil salvation is about restoring man to our place with god our place in his plan . adam wasnt created needing salvation , nor cain but they and we all even today every human is created , to hear gods word , and believe what he has said and walk after that word as if its the word of our God.
the choice is there not in the action but the belief that leads to the action whether good or bad, mans design is to only listen to god satan introduced an issue of disinformation about the fruit exploiting adams freedom to eat of all the trees of eden even being warned that this one particular was certain death,
jesus created everything in the beginning he had offered the tree of life to adam then forbid the tree of certain death which inherantly shows mans design of a choice . you are free to ...but you must not.
our nature isnt an excuse for our actions. cain was doing some things that werent right is why his sacrifice wasnt acceotable . hes told " if you do whats right youll be acceptable , but if you do not do what is right, sin is right at your door waiting and trying to posess you , you must overcome it '
again cains jealousy of ables position because of his good works and cains bad works of course motivated his murder but him saying " well lord thats just my nature " isnt an excuse for killing his righteous brother . its not that god just favored able , ablke favored God was the difference cains actions and sacrifice is the reason. if were sitting around jealous stewing about our siblings success lol plotting murder .....but think " i have no choice its may nature im gonna do itn at some point its my nature" im not sure this is the proper understanding of human nature. but i digress you seem offended
will i believe gods word and follow his will expressed in the gospel? if i will then he can make me able thats what the gospel declares to us.
or will i reject what he said and did in the gospel and make my own way ? if i do , the destination will be what he has made so clear.
man wasnt created sinners and corrupt were made that way by rejecting gods way and listening to a lie which led to man trying to make our own way be our own gods knowing good and evil salvation is about restoring man to our place with god our place in his plan . adam wasnt created needing salvation , nor cain but they and we all even today every human is created , to hear gods word , and believe what he has said and walk after that word as if its the word of our God.
the choice is there not in the action but the belief that leads to the action whether good or bad, mans design is to only listen to god satan introduced an issue of disinformation about the fruit exploiting adams freedom to eat of all the trees of eden even being warned that this one particular was certain death,
jesus created everything in the beginning he had offered the tree of life to adam then forbid the tree of certain death which inherantly shows mans design of a choice . you are free to ...but you must not.
our nature isnt an excuse for our actions. cain was doing some things that werent right is why his sacrifice wasnt acceotable . hes told " if you do whats right youll be acceptable , but if you do not do what is right, sin is right at your door waiting and trying to posess you , you must overcome it '
again cains jealousy of ables position because of his good works and cains bad works of course motivated his murder but him saying " well lord thats just my nature " isnt an excuse for killing his righteous brother . its not that god just favored able , ablke favored God was the difference cains actions and sacrifice is the reason. if were sitting around jealous stewing about our siblings success lol plotting murder .....but think " i have no choice its may nature im gonna do itn at some point its my nature" im not sure this is the proper understanding of human nature. but i digress you seem offended
Adam was the only human being to truly have a FREE choice because he was created alive unto God which made him "very good". Adam had none of the spiritual baggage that his progeny had. No sin nature to which he was in bondage, no wicked heart, no deceitful heart, wasn't not blinded by the evil one and was not influenced by an evil world system. Adam was FREE FROM all those encumbrances. His progeny are not. There's no comparison between the spiritual advantages Adam had compared to his progeny's. Day and night.
And I, too, know the context of Jer 13 -- but that doesn't change the fact that the Jews put on their [spiritual] pants the same exact way the Gentiles do! So...what the passage teaches about apostate Israel applies with equal force to all the idolatrous pagan Gentiles in the world. And moreover, my interpretation harmonizes quite well with numerous other scriptures, some of which I either quoted or cited earlier.
And I, too, know the context of Jer 13 -- but that doesn't change the fact that the Jews put on their [spiritual] pants the same exact way the Gentiles do! So...what the passage teaches about apostate Israel applies with equal force to all the idolatrous pagan Gentiles in the world. And moreover, my interpretation harmonizes quite well with numerous other scriptures, some of which I either quoted or cited earlier.
No, our nature is not both good and evil! Jesus said there is no one good but God alone. And Jesus often called his generation "evil". Paul said there's not a thing that is good in his sin nature (flesh). Isaiah taught that there is absolutely no spiritual soundness in man.
Have you never read that man is by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!?
Our nature is not a mere excuse. Our nature determines what we are in our essence. God is a holy being by NATURE which is why he cannot sin. Man, on the other hand, is evil by nature which is why man cannot not sin!
Have you never read that man is by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!?
Our nature is not a mere excuse. Our nature determines what we are in our essence. God is a holy being by NATURE which is why he cannot sin. Man, on the other hand, is evil by nature which is why man cannot not sin!
Satan till this day is appealing his sentence to the Lake of Fire.
He is the father of denial and gaslighting.
When Satan and his angels fell God dealt with him in a way that was designed to get Satan to repent and admit he was wrong.
Instead of repentance? He was only conjuring up rationales to vindicate himself. Since the angels that remained with God found Satan's nature foreign to their unfallen state, what Satan was doing in trying to vindicate himself was causing the elect angels confusion. Keep in mind, the angels before Satan's fall had great comradery and love for one another.
So? How was God going to make the reason for His judgment of Satan understood by angels who were a bit naïve about how evil functions? They being pure, had no frame of reference for what evil was.
What if God provided them with examples by means of other creatures actions to show them themselves, and the fallen angels' thinking? Like the prophet Nathan did with David in this passage:
When Satan condemns a believer to the Lord about something Satan knows is wrong?
God turns to Satan and tells him, "You are that one!"
God could not create something inherently evil to make things clear in that manner like Nathan and David.
So, guess what?
God allowed Satan to cause the fall, so God could then have such examples to work with!
It's kind of funny when we realize that Satan thought he was going to hurt God with Adam's fall.
But, instead of hurting God? Satan erected his own guillotine in doing so.
For fallen man's ways had become the perfect way to get Satan and his angels to recognize that they
deserve all the punishment God decreed for them.
For Satan and his angels condemn fallen believer's examples of wrong doing,
which they love to accuse and condemn? Are in effect? Fulfilling this passage...
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge,
you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured
back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye,
but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Matthew 7:1-3
They are admitting that God condemning them was the correct thing to do!
By decreeing that man would become fallen? Thus naturally reflecting the mind of Satan?
God can now point out to the angels (via man's examples) God's need to judge and condemn their own wrong doing.
For illustrations of Satan's destructiveness are seen with fallen believers all the time. .
God is now showing all his angels why Satan could never be restored back to their once had as one big beautiful family.
For when some believer gets walking in his ego and pride, it destroys the unity of fellowship and love. Angels see the
fallacy of unconditional love makes all things right with God.
Nathan and David is only one example.
When the Lord commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?
That was to reveal something else to Satan.
And, by God allowing Satan to near destroy Job?
That served yet another purpose to vindicate God's judgment before all angels.
And, through diligent study and learning of sound doctrine?
There are more examples to be realized!
grace and peace .......................
He is the father of denial and gaslighting.
When Satan and his angels fell God dealt with him in a way that was designed to get Satan to repent and admit he was wrong.
Instead of repentance? He was only conjuring up rationales to vindicate himself. Since the angels that remained with God found Satan's nature foreign to their unfallen state, what Satan was doing in trying to vindicate himself was causing the elect angels confusion. Keep in mind, the angels before Satan's fall had great comradery and love for one another.
So? How was God going to make the reason for His judgment of Satan understood by angels who were a bit naïve about how evil functions? They being pure, had no frame of reference for what evil was.
What if God provided them with examples by means of other creatures actions to show them themselves, and the fallen angels' thinking? Like the prophet Nathan did with David in this passage:
Nathan Rebukes David - 2 Samuel 12:1-7a.
The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said,
“There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor.
2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man
had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it
grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup
and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from
taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler
who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to
the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan,
“As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die!
6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such
a thing and had no pity.”
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!"
When Satan condemns a believer to the Lord about something Satan knows is wrong?
God turns to Satan and tells him, "You are that one!"
God could not create something inherently evil to make things clear in that manner like Nathan and David.
So, guess what?
God allowed Satan to cause the fall, so God could then have such examples to work with!
It's kind of funny when we realize that Satan thought he was going to hurt God with Adam's fall.
But, instead of hurting God? Satan erected his own guillotine in doing so.
For fallen man's ways had become the perfect way to get Satan and his angels to recognize that they
deserve all the punishment God decreed for them.
For Satan and his angels condemn fallen believer's examples of wrong doing,
which they love to accuse and condemn? Are in effect? Fulfilling this passage...
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge,
you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured
back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye,
but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Matthew 7:1-3
They are admitting that God condemning them was the correct thing to do!
By decreeing that man would become fallen? Thus naturally reflecting the mind of Satan?
God can now point out to the angels (via man's examples) God's need to judge and condemn their own wrong doing.
For illustrations of Satan's destructiveness are seen with fallen believers all the time. .
God is now showing all his angels why Satan could never be restored back to their once had as one big beautiful family.
For when some believer gets walking in his ego and pride, it destroys the unity of fellowship and love. Angels see the
fallacy of unconditional love makes all things right with God.
Nathan and David is only one example.
When the Lord commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?
That was to reveal something else to Satan.
And, by God allowing Satan to near destroy Job?
That served yet another purpose to vindicate God's judgment before all angels.
And, through diligent study and learning of sound doctrine?
There are more examples to be realized!
grace and peace .......................
If anything happens in this universe that the Divine Playwright has not written into his script, then God is not the Supreme Ruler of this universe and, moreover, he can't be trusted since his will is contingent on the wills of other moral agents. God, essentially, would be marching to their drumbeat.
And, yes, God did decree the fall. It's the very first prophecy in scripture.
And, yes, God did decree the fall. It's the very first prophecy in scripture.
I don't know if any verse that says Lucifer and his fallen comrades are able to be redeemed.
God has dominion and is Sivereign over all his creation.
https://www.desiringgod.org/message...ll-stand-and-i-will-accomplish-all-my-purpose
What has God done to people here? Compared to Satan?
Eve was set up in Eden. No forgiveness for an innocent mistake she didn't possess the intellect not to make.
And now all humans are born belonging to Satan as soon as they are accountable for their sins. And unless their name is in God's book written before the creation, they will die in their sins and remain Satan's in Hell for all eternity.
God is sovereign and has dominion over all.
God has dominion and is Sivereign over all his creation.
https://www.desiringgod.org/message...ll-stand-and-i-will-accomplish-all-my-purpose
What has God done to people here? Compared to Satan?
Eve was set up in Eden. No forgiveness for an innocent mistake she didn't possess the intellect not to make.
And now all humans are born belonging to Satan as soon as they are accountable for their sins. And unless their name is in God's book written before the creation, they will die in their sins and remain Satan's in Hell for all eternity.
God is sovereign and has dominion over all.
How did Enoch live and walk with God get translated and never die if all of adams children are incapable ?
“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
Genesis 5:22-24 KJV
Again enoch was saved by faith because he pleased god
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5
if man is incapable after Adam how did Enoch the seventh generation from Adam please God ? Was he also incapable ?
“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
Genesis 5:22-24 KJV
Again enoch was saved by faith because he pleased god
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5
if man is incapable after Adam how did Enoch the seventh generation from Adam please God ? Was he also incapable ?
“No, our nature is not both good and evil”
“Man, on the other hand, is evil by nature which is why man cannot not sin!”
Lol there we go….so even if we do evil it’s not sin not our fault just how we are I see lol I knew where this was coming from to get back to “ even if we do evil it’s not really sin because we can’t possibly do good “ frustrating view you have
“Man, on the other hand, is evil by nature which is why man cannot not sin!”
Lol there we go….so even if we do evil it’s not sin not our fault just how we are I see lol I knew where this was coming from to get back to “ even if we do evil it’s not really sin because we can’t possibly do good “ frustrating view you have
His testimony affirmed that Jesus Christ pleased God. The "he" refers not to Enoch but to Christ, indicating that Enoch had been saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, and thus, granted true faith in Christ. Through his testimony, Enoch illustrates a truth recognized by all who become saved: that they, like him, are incapable of saving themselves, thereby acknowledging Christ as Savior as a gift from God. God affirmed this by translating him in order to include it in scripture for our edification.
[Heb 11:5 & 6 KJV]
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[Heb 11:5 & 6 KJV]
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
right ! Enoch walked with God by faith !!
“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
Genesis 5:22-24 KJV
God is Jesus the creator who was always the same before he became flesh eater n the form of man and announced his name and person to us in Jesus the son !
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
John 1:1-4
The gospel is when he came into the world as one of us the son as promised in tbe ot prophets
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ( genesis 1:1 )
And the Word was made flesh, ( John 1:1) and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 1:9-10, 14 KJV
Enoch onew the lord before he became flesh he offered life always but men became wicked because of sin ot corrupted our hearts over time and they later became like this
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 KJV
but look what it says about Noah a man of faith
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
And God said unto Noah, ( the word ) The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;( many instructions )
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:8-9, 13-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
faith comes when we believe what God said to us like Noah did
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
Like Abraham did Abraham also is on the same kingdom
“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 8:11 KJV
after jacob the children of Israel later receive a different covenant based on thier works and Moses words in the law
Abraham’s covenant promosed a future where all nations would be included with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob through the promised seed of Abraham
That’s fuflilled when Jesus comes preaching the kingdom of God and dyong as the figure of isaac who gos also saved from death as a figure of Jesus and the gospel that would be announced later but always along the way men would follow the lord and it’s not a different person he’s in a different form and hidden until the time of the gospel came and the nations would be saved with israel anyone who believed whether a Jew first or gentile afterwards
Grace and faith have always saved man faith is when you hear what Gods telling you and believe it . The gospel of Jesus Christ full of grace and truth like Noah received , is what he’s telling everyone until the end of the world will save us
“And he said unto them, ( all Jews and a few samaritans ) Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
he was there to speak even then before he was born in the flesh in the gospel and returned to heaven in victory for mankind
Not now. When they first began to rebel.
And, like Pharaoh.... they hardened their hearts.
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son?
It says,
Angels were called "sons of God."
Satan began a rebellion amongst the angels.
God disciplined them in attempt to get them to repent, especially Satan, while it was yet the time of determination of their volition. Like with Pharaoh, the time and tries was brought to a head.
And, like Pharaoh.... they hardened their hearts.
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son?
It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Hebrews 12:5-6
Angels were called "sons of God."
Satan began a rebellion amongst the angels.
God disciplined them in attempt to get them to repent, especially Satan, while it was yet the time of determination of their volition. Like with Pharaoh, the time and tries was brought to a head.
In the Masoretic Text. The LXX has angels of God. The former can't be correct because which of the angels did he ever call his son? The sons of God in Genesis are the godly seed of Adam.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hebrews 1:5
We believe when we are given true faith by God, which true faith comes from first becoming saved/born again.
[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The unique covenant of salvation resides solely in Christ, there is no other way possible.
God's promise, symbolized by Isaac (spiritually), is not governed by physical descent. It is only the elect/chosen who constitute this spiritual lineage and are deemed the children of the promise.
[Rom 9:7-8,11 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The unique covenant of salvation resides solely in Christ, there is no other way possible.
God's promise, symbolized by Isaac (spiritually), is not governed by physical descent. It is only the elect/chosen who constitute this spiritual lineage and are deemed the children of the promise.
[Rom 9:7-8,11 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)