Former pentecostal
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Great example. Amen! 
A gift of knowledge isn‘t learned. It is like a gift: given. And the reason it is a spiritual gift is because the Spirit gives it.
Without traditions that cloud our understanding these things are easy to understand.
A gift of knowledge isn‘t learned. It is like a gift: given. And the reason it is a spiritual gift is because the Spirit gives it.
Without traditions that cloud our understanding these things are easy to understand.
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LOL, are you following?
You
"That's not correct. A spiritual gift must have a spiritual component. Otherwise you're just "book-learned".
One who is called should be confirmed by others."
My response.
"God's calling a person is the most spiritual component and is the only one that matters, as is His word. "
you
"Okay. Can you give me an example?"
One who preaches doesn't have to have the gift of the apostellō, which means one who is sent out. The apostle is sent out.
Preaching is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the word of GOD.
You
"That's not correct. A spiritual gift must have a spiritual component. Otherwise you're just "book-learned".
One who is called should be confirmed by others."
My response.
"God's calling a person is the most spiritual component and is the only one that matters, as is His word. "
you
"Okay. Can you give me an example?"
One who preaches doesn't have to have the gift of the apostellō, which means one who is sent out. The apostle is sent out.
Preaching is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the word of GOD.
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What God's written Word says on the matter of the cloven tongue of Pentecost is one thing, but men's doctrines about it are another. I will show the difference here, and my fellow-brethren in Christ can either take it or leave it.
Per Acts 2, the cloven tongue manifested by The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles on that day of Pentecost was heard by the multitudes present in their 'own' languages and dialects of their birth.
The Holy Spirit even left a perfect outline about that cloven tongue in the Greek New Testament manuscripts, with the order of appearance of Greek glossa (language) and Greek dialektos (dialect). That is how we know those present heard them speak in their own dialects of birth, and in the U.S. that would mean if you were there, and from the Southeastern U.S. you would hear the Apostles say 'yal', and if you were from the Northern U.S. you'd hear them say 'you's guys'.
In other words, Acts 2 proves the cloven tongue is not... gibberish speech.
In 1 Corinthians 12 thru 14 by Apostle Paul, he points to the idea of tongues to mean various languages of the world, not some mystery gibberish speech...
1 Cor 12:9-10
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
KJV
In the following, per the Greek New Testament manuscripts, the word "unknown" in the KJV was ADDED by the KJV translators. It is not in the Greek manuscripts...
1 Cor 14:2-5
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
KJV
The true... cloven tongue of Pentecost is to manifest especially at the end of this world during the "great tribulation" when some of us will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in order to give a TESTIMONY for Christ against the beast. Per Mark 13, Lord Jesus told us to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak. Most likely those witnesses will be televised around the world, which would never have been possible without satellite communications technology. God is going to speak directly to the world through His faithful servants with the original tongue that all nations once spoke prior to the tower of Babel event.
Per Acts 2, the cloven tongue manifested by The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles on that day of Pentecost was heard by the multitudes present in their 'own' languages and dialects of their birth.
The Holy Spirit even left a perfect outline about that cloven tongue in the Greek New Testament manuscripts, with the order of appearance of Greek glossa (language) and Greek dialektos (dialect). That is how we know those present heard them speak in their own dialects of birth, and in the U.S. that would mean if you were there, and from the Southeastern U.S. you would hear the Apostles say 'yal', and if you were from the Northern U.S. you'd hear them say 'you's guys'.
In other words, Acts 2 proves the cloven tongue is not... gibberish speech.
In 1 Corinthians 12 thru 14 by Apostle Paul, he points to the idea of tongues to mean various languages of the world, not some mystery gibberish speech...
1 Cor 12:9-10
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
KJV
In the following, per the Greek New Testament manuscripts, the word "unknown" in the KJV was ADDED by the KJV translators. It is not in the Greek manuscripts...
1 Cor 14:2-5
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
KJV
The true... cloven tongue of Pentecost is to manifest especially at the end of this world during the "great tribulation" when some of us will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in order to give a TESTIMONY for Christ against the beast. Per Mark 13, Lord Jesus told us to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak. Most likely those witnesses will be televised around the world, which would never have been possible without satellite communications technology. God is going to speak directly to the world through His faithful servants with the original tongue that all nations once spoke prior to the tower of Babel event.
"How can they preach unless they are sent?" is the verse in English.
Are there other parts of the Bible you don't like?
That is not the full context of the text. You know better than that.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “
The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Not all are called to be apostles.
No, God did not tell you that. And it is not gibberish, not if the person is not abusing the gifts. I have told this story before. I know personally a man that was saved and became a preacher of a large church because of the gift of tongues.
This is a "story" I grew up with, my parents told me. A man they knew from Syria.I believe,who moved to Canada. He knew little English. One Sunday he passed a church and thought he heard his native tongue being spoken. He went into the church and sat in the back. A woman was speaking in tongues and told him how to become born again in his own language. After the service he went to the pastor and asked to speak to the lady from Syria. The pastor said there was no one there from Syria. He became a born again Christian that day because he heard the Gospel spoken to him in his own tongue. He became a pastor of a large church. I attended that church, met that pastor and ministered from the platform of the church he is pastor of. Explain to me why the devil would want to get a man saved, become a pastor of a wonderful church of believers spreading the Word of God???!! In 20 yrs of ministry I could tell of many more instances. You need to check which spirit you're talking to, it sure isn't from God.
This is a "story" I grew up with, my parents told me. A man they knew from Syria.I believe,who moved to Canada. He knew little English. One Sunday he passed a church and thought he heard his native tongue being spoken. He went into the church and sat in the back. A woman was speaking in tongues and told him how to become born again in his own language. After the service he went to the pastor and asked to speak to the lady from Syria. The pastor said there was no one there from Syria. He became a born again Christian that day because he heard the Gospel spoken to him in his own tongue. He became a pastor of a large church. I attended that church, met that pastor and ministered from the platform of the church he is pastor of. Explain to me why the devil would want to get a man saved, become a pastor of a wonderful church of believers spreading the Word of God???!! In 20 yrs of ministry I could tell of many more instances. You need to check which spirit you're talking to, it sure isn't from God.
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Great example. Amen!
A gift of knowledge isn‘t learned. It is like a gift: given. And the reason it is a spiritual gift is because the Spirit gives it.
Without traditions that cloud our understanding these things are easy to understand.
A gift of knowledge isn‘t learned. It is like a gift: given. And the reason it is a spiritual gift is because the Spirit gives it.
Without traditions that cloud our understanding these things are easy to understand.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Romans 10:13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
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Note the exclusion of the word "unknown" in 1 Cor. 14:2 does not change what the scripture goes on to reveal. NO MAN UNDERSTANDS what the Spirit filled person is saying when their renewed spirit speaks directly to God, not even they themselves. Letting go and letting God is an act of faith.
1 Cor 14:2-5
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: FOR NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Cor 14:2-5
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: FOR NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
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Here's my take on "when that which is perfect", which CANNOT be Jesus since he isn't a "that". I previously posted this as part of a short study on spiritual gifts.
REPOST
The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.
First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.
You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.
Show trimmed content
REPOST
The subject of spiritual gifts is difficult to understand, hence very controversial, and equally difficult to unravel.
First, look at the way Paul began the Corinthian letter starting at 1 Cor1:10 wherein he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Cor; and keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some future event. And note that the church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned of in Heb 6 as well.
You have to first ask yourself what is "that which is perfect"? It's not referring to Jesus or his return, Jesus is not a "that".
The answer can be found in Eph 4:13 wherein it states 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, that being the perfection of the body of Christ: this then addressing the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the gifts, parts of the body as equated to the body of a man, noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need such miraculous piece meal parts of the body. Also note, the interlinear says "should come" not "is come" which also supports the idea of the possible replacing of something permanent for the temporal nature of the gifts.
The "face to face" and "known as we are known" relates to the distinction between the OT writings when reading Moses, and coming to Christ via the NT and the comparison to the veil when reading Moses, and we now, and they then, being able to look into a glass (mirror) and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image.
To piece it all together, you must consider the gifts and their need at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify and grow it, such as by tongues, being a sign to unbelievers, miracles, prophesy, etc.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words and phraseology used and piece those similar words and phrases together to get an understanding of their meaning as relates to the subject.
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Here's the trimmed content that was committed as a continuation of my post
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get their meaning as relates to the subject.
1 Cor 12:8-27
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Cor 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Cor 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Gal 3:23-25
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Eph 4:11-16
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Gal 3, and Eph 4. Look closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get their meaning as relates to the subject.
1 Cor 12:8-27
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Cor 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2 Cor 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Gal 3:23-25
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Eph 4:11-16
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.