Amillennialism

[shroom2]

hi bud!
you know, if you just spent one (1) day setting aside your presuppositions on how God deals with men: COVENANTS VS DISPENSATIONS, you would soon see that covenant theology is the truth.

No, I would not, because it is not the truth. God deals with the nation of Israel in covenants.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The first covenant is fulfilled, the second will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. In the meantime, we have Christianity. Christianity, this entire administration of grace, was not known about in the OT (or the gospels).

and if you just took one (1) day and researched names like Darby, Scofield & UNTERMYER you'd see that their new system is a complete forgery and imported into the Biblical texts.

you would see that the silly and embarassing concept of a pretribulation rapture they added(for a very good reason) is just smoke and mirrors.

Again, no, I would not.

if you went back to the first few posts, there's an audio sermon there that exegetes Rev 20 - the tiny chapter that has caused so much division contrary to what the apostles and Jesus taught....if you just reasoned for a couple of hours on how a literal 1,000 years would work in a millennial scenario (it wouldn't, for all would know the nano-second of every event millennialists claim takes place! including their future binding and releasing of satan to deceive - how could he deceive when everybody would know the last week of the 1,000 years?)

I will listen to the sermon. Would you please get me the link? I tried here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/30069-amillennialism.html#post531301

The link takes you to a song, not a sermon.

Jesus taught TWO WORLDS....this world we now live in...and the WORLD TO COME (eternity). no future 1,000 years Shroomer. there's no future 1,000 years taught ANYWHERE.

Yes, there absolutely is, zone.

but the Pharisees need it......presto! enter untemyer/scofield.


Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life

best to you
zonest.

"World" is "aion", or "age". And again, when Jesus spoke those words, the dispensation of grace was still a secret, hid in God.

Please get me the link to the sermon, I will listen. And FWIW, I do not scour the internet looking for opinions on what to believe. They are not authoritative. For any given subject in the bible, there are lots of opinions as to what it means. Most of them are wrong, including many of the ones you use to "prove" your amillennial theology.

 

[zone]

Not only does it sound good, but it is good and it is right but you reject it and throw it down. The word will judge all of us in the last days and your no exception. You have a serious problem with the possibility of being wrong in your knowledge and judgment and you put faith in your understanding that comes from the wrong knowledge and you reject others who don't, that is why you are blinded by our own zeal and it makes you dull of hearing just like the Jews. DULL!

i'll say this one last time for you.
i have studied your belief system thoroughly.clearly i know more about it than you do.
dispensational theology is false. utterly.

i am not blinded by zeal, though i have zeal.
i am not dull, i take the meat and the milk, and have my senses exercised by reason OF USE.

i USE what i have been given.
through that use, and by The Lord's granting of MORE since i use what He gives me, i have discerned that dispensational theology is the work of men, it is a MAN-CENTERED THEOLOGY,it was added by men who have added to scripture, and therefore it is EVIL.

i have studied the scriptures from a CHRISTO-CENTRIC perspective, seeing Covenants, and through those covenants came The Lord Our Rightouesness....and it is BEAUTIFUL and GOOD.

don't bother breathing fire on me anymore Red, unless you enjoy it. then by all means feel free.

i plan to help as many as possible to come out from under the corrupt system of dispensational millennial christian zionist teaching.

zone.

 

[shroom2]

i'll say this, i have studied, clearly i know, i am not blinded, i have zeal, i am not dull, i take, [ i ] have my senses, i USE what i have been given, i use what He gives me, i have discerned, i have studied, i plan to help

Lotsa "I"s in there, zone

 

[Strangelove]

No, I would not, because it is not the truth. God deals with the nation of Israel in covenants.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The first covenant is fulfilled, the second will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. In the meantime, we have Christianity. Christianity, this entire administration of grace, was not known about in the OT (or the gospels).

The second covenant is the New Covenant that is open to Jew and Gentile alike.

Or are you saying that the whole of Hebrews 8 is talking of a covenant JUST for Hebrews?

Paul is certainly ADDRESSING the Hebrews but is that New Covenant ONLY for them and ONLY applicable 2000 years into the future?

 

[zone]

Lotsa "I"s in there, zone

ya, you're right. prolly what the poster wanted anyways. yuck. thanks for pointing it out.

what else do you do when there are a million "YOU"s peppered in all these anti-amillennial tirades?
disgruntled dispies are always making it personal.

a-a-a-a-anyways.....DOES ANYONE WANT TO UNDERSTAND AMILLENNIALISM??

lol SHROOM....

worth a thousand words.

kinda like a thousand years.

neat FIGURE OF SPEECH.

a thousand different ways.....hmmm.....a thousand years....

the face that launched a thousand ships...hmmm.....

a thousand ways to please a husband.....food

a thousand.....

if i've told you once, i've told you a thousand times:


Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

 

[shroom2]

The second covenant is the New Covenant that is open to Jew and Gentile alike.

Or are you saying that the whole of Hebrews 8 is talking of a covenant JUST for Hebrews?

Paul is certainly ADDRESSING the Hebrews but is that New Covenant ONLY for them and ONLY applicable 2000 years into the future?

Heb 8:
6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [ the trib ], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The above verses are relevant to the nation of Israel. God is not through dealing with Israel as a people yet. The new covenant with Israel will be in place in the millennial kingdom. It will not be necessary for anyone to teach anyone else, all will know.

 

[shroom2]

ya, you're right. prolly what the poster wanted anyways. yuck. thanks for pointing it out.

what else do you do when there are a million "YOU"s peppered in all these anti-amillennial tirades?
disgruntled dispies are always making it personal.

a-a-a-a-anyways.....DOES ANYONE WANT TO UNDERSTAND AMILLENNIALISM??

lol SHROOM....

worth a thousand words.

kinda like a thousand years.

neat FIGURE OF SPEECH.

a thousand different ways.....hmmm.....a thousand years....

the face that launched a thousand ships...hmmm.....

a thousand ways to please a husband.....food

a thousand.....

if i've told you once, i've told you a thousand times:


Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Your point is noted. I agree, "thousand" can indeed be a figure of speech. As in:

2 Pet 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But in Rev 20, it is explicitly mentioned six times:
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Even if it does not mean a literal period of a thousand years, the millennial kingdom will not happen until after Christs return. In v4, it is referring to people who were killed during the trib (beast, image, mark, all things that will happen in the trib). The trib has not happened yet.

 

[zone]

No, I would not, because it is not the truth. God deals with the nation of Israel in covenants.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

The first covenant is fulfilled, the second will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. In the meantime, we have Christianity. Christianity, this entire administration of grace, was not known about in the OT (or the gospels).


Again, no, I would not.


I will listen to the sermon. Would you please get me the link? I tried here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/30069-amillennialism.html#post531301

The link takes you to a song, not a sermon.


Yes, there absolutely is, zone.


"World" is "aion", or "age". And again, when Jesus spoke those words, the dispensation of grace was still a secret, hid in God.

Please get me the link to the sermon, I will listen. And FWIW, I do not scour the internet looking for opinions on what to believe. They are not authoritative. For any given subject in the bible, there are lots of opinions as to what it means. Most of them are wrong, including many of the ones you use to "prove" your amillennial theology.

i'm on a caveman laptop.
i can't do much.

of course the church was foretold in the OT shroom.
but only a Christo-centric view knows that.
come on....look here: Paul told us in Ephesians that God purposed from the beginning to have ONE PEOPLE, the gentiles fellow-heirs. you know that.

Isaiah 42:1
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations

he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles; the Gospel, the produce of divine wisdom; the Gospel of God, whose judgment is according to truth; the rule of human judgment in things spiritual and saving, and by which Christ judges and rules in the hearts of his people; this he brought forth out of his Father's bosom, out of his own heart, and published it in person to the Jews, and by his apostles to the converted by it, became subject to his rule and government. Gentiles, who being converted by it, became subject to his rule and government.

Isaiah 65:1
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'

Romans 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
Isaiah 63:19 We are yours from of old; but you have not ruled over them, they have not been called by your name.

come on shroom....all through the OT the gentiles are mentioned even in Christ's geneology.


Isaiah 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
Isaiah 49:6 he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
Isaiah 49:9 to say to the captives, 'Come out,' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!' "They will feed beside the roads and find pasture on every barren hill.


LIKE WHAT? NO CHURCH? NO PLAN OF ONE PEOPLE?

as for the sermon, it's there...its hard to see. its right near the top, written just the way i typed it.

i'll find some more that make it simple.

google Riddlebarger: amillennialism 101 - he was a dispie. he talks about the things that forced him out of that system. MP3s galore.
you can always go back to dispensationalism if you've thoroughly examined amillennialism.

THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL SHROOM.
THE BELIEVING SHEEP OF ISRAEL, AND THE OTHER SHEEP HE MENTIONED THAT HE MUST BRING ALSO: THE GENTILES.

no PLAN B.

the Ultimate ISRAEL IS JESUS
don't you notice Him mentioned when national israel is mentioned?

all their Covenants came together in the Promise, Jesus.
Daniel 9 is fulfilled.
some didn't believe. they were CUT OFF.
they can be grafted back in if they believe.

it's not hard - IT'S COVENANTS!

 

[zone]

Heb 8:
6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [ the trib ], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The above verses are relevant to the nation of Israel. God is not through dealing with Israel as a people yet. The new covenant with Israel will be in place in the millennial kingdom. It will not be necessary for anyone to teach anyone else, all will know.

don't be ridiculous
that The Book of HEBREWS

and you'll find in chapter 11 GENTILES men of faith like ABRAHAM who was a gentile and received the covenant PROMISE of Christ BEFORE he was circumcised!

 

[zone]

Your point is noted. I agree, "thousand" can indeed be a figure of speech. As in:

2 Pet 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

But in Rev 20, it is explicitly mentioned six times:
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Even if it does not mean a literal period of a thousand years, the millennial kingdom will not happen until after Christs return. In v4, it is referring to people who were killed during the trib (beast, image, mark, all things that will happen in the trib). The trib has not happened yet.

the thousand years is now.
the reason the beheaded souls are mentioned specifically is because John had just seen the TRIB!
ALL BELIEVERS ARE REIGNING WITH CHRIST NOW!

they are souls. that is the first resurrection - when you die you will be with them...it includes all those who have died in Christ from the First Advent.

we get our glorified bodies at the Second Resurrection, at the Second Advent.

 

[shroom2]

the thousand years is now.

It is future.

the reason the beheaded souls are mentioned specifically is because John had just seen the TRIB!
ALL BELIEVERS ARE REIGNING WITH CHRIST NOW!

Dead people are DEAD. Our hope (if we die before the rapture) is in being resurrected FROM THE DEAD. "The DEAD in Christ shall rise first". -NOBODY- has been raised to eternal life except Christ.

they are souls.

They WERE souls. John saw them in a vision, by revelation.

that is the first resurrection

The first resurrection is future, at the very end of the trib.

- when you die you will be with them...

Yes. Dead. In the grave.

it includes all those who have died in Christ from the First Advent.

we get our glorified bodies at the Second Resurrection, at the Second Advent.

The Christian church (dead and alive) will be resurrected or changed and get their new bodies at the rapture. OT believers and trib believers at the first resurrection.

People DIE, zone. The hope is in being resurrected, which will happen in the future.

...looks like we're a bajillion miles apart.

 

[Fencepost]

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.


unfortunately dispensationalism has set itself up against the knowledge of God, so.......Covenant and Amillennial believers tend to desire to tear down that stronghold....and tear it down we shall.

thx for this zone will add to my screen saver pics very nicely.

 

[Fencepost]

Cam...it can be dangerous as some may recite the prayer and think thats it, they are saved.

My advice to people would be to rather, read the Gospels and know what your praying for.

I try and pray nothing for myself, but that all people on planet earth might know Jesus of Nazereth and the truth of His Gospel.

 

[AnandaHya]

what about the people who were rose from their graves after Jesus was cruxified?

Matthew 27
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

what if this is the first resurrection? what if after you die and God wishes He raises the dead and has them reign with Him NOW in Heaven? Since Satan was tossed out of Heaven and is BOUND from going up there again.

or do you think Satan can still access God's throne?

 

[BlueLagoon]

what about the people who were rose from their graves after Jesus was cruxified?

Matthew 27
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

what if this is the first resurrection? what if after you die and God wishes He raises the dead and has them reign with Him NOW in Heaven? Since Satan was tossed out of Heaven and is BOUND from going up there again.

or do you think Satan can still access God's throne?

Hi Ananda, I dont believe that was the first resurrection, I believe it was dead bodies raised back to life so that the Lord would be glorified and that the people would believe and realize what had truly happened.

You are asking the wrong people here because you already know that they will jump on the opportunity and claim that YES, SATAN IS BOUND!,,
If you read Rev. 19 and onwards it is crystal clear that satan is bound AFTER Christ returns to earth with the saints. There is nothing they can say to dispute this, although they will of course try. Dont buy into this amillenial junk.

 

[Strangelove]

Heb 8:
6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [ the trib ], saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The above verses are relevant to the nation of Israel. God is not through dealing with Israel as a people yet. The new covenant with Israel will be in place in the millennial kingdom. It will not be necessary for anyone to teach anyone else, all will know.

Shroom....what did the writer mean in the first verse...

6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Was he letting the Hevrews know about a better covenant for their future ancestors in 2000 years or was he talking about now?

 

[Strangelove]

I try and pray nothing for myself, but that all people on planet earth might know Jesus of Nazereth and the truth of His Gospel.

Thats great Posty but...Earth is not a planet.

 

[Strangelove]

Our repose brethren are with the Lord now. Not hanging around in their graves. Their soul is with God.

(Philippians 1:21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

(Philippians 1:22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

(Philippians 1:23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

When we die, our souls go to Christ:

2 Cor. 5:6-8. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

The dead will come in spirit WITH Jesus when He returns:

1 Thess. 4:13-18. 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Strangelove]

Hi Ananda, I dont believe that was the first resurrection, I believe it was dead bodies raised back to life so that the Lord would be glorified and that the people would believe and realize what had truly happened.

You are asking the wrong people here because you already know that they will jump on the opportunity and claim that YES, SATAN IS BOUND!,,
If you read Rev. 19 and onwards it is crystal clear that satan is bound AFTER Christ returns to earth with the saints. There is nothing they can say to dispute this, although they will of course try. Dont buy into this amillenial junk.

The chapters of Rev are not in chronological order.

They are a set of visions that often describe the same period of time more than once.

 

[BlueLagoon]

The chapters of Rev are not in chronological order.

They are a set of visions that often describe the same period of time more than once.

And of course you are "rearranging" it to fit your false agenda therfore well on the road to deceiving many.
Christ returns! Satan is bound because it is HE alone who is able to do that.