Question about the Trinity
- Thread starter Crazyjmill
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Milliennium means the 1000-year period of Christ's reign on earth starting at his return. God, the father, comes to earth after that period
The end obviously refers to a period after Christ's return, which has to be after the millennium because it won't be until the end of that when all rebellion is put down.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:7
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2
The end obviously refers to a period after Christ's return, which has to be after the millennium because it won't be until the end of that when all rebellion is put down.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24
-
1
- Show all
What part of EPH 4:6, "(There is) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" do you think you are not ignoring?!
Why do you ask that question about Jesus?
Why don't YOU really think Paul was not lying when he said in ACTS 17:24-28, "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth... He gives everyone life and breath and everything else... He is not far from any one of us, for in Him we live and move and have our being..."?
Why would you think that PS 139:7-8, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?..." (cf. 1KG 8:27, IS 66:1, JR 23:23-24), means it "would make you the holiest place"?!
Why do you ask that question about Jesus?
Why don't YOU really think Paul was not lying when he said in ACTS 17:24-28, "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth... He gives everyone life and breath and everything else... He is not far from any one of us, for in Him we live and move and have our being..."?
Why would you think that PS 139:7-8, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?..." (cf. 1KG 8:27, IS 66:1, JR 23:23-24), means it "would make you the holiest place"?!
God, the father, himself is not in us just as Jesus himself is not in us. They are both in heaven, and we are on earth. They are in us through the holy spirit. Scripture uses the same language I'm using when it says God himself will come to earth after the millennium (see above verse), which can only mean he himself is not here now..
Paul wasn't lying because God is very near to us through his spirit. You're thinking in spatial terms, which really has no meaning to what Paul wrote.
God's spirit is his presence. God dwells in the holiest place, so if you think God, the father, himself is dwelling in you, then that has to mean that you are the holiest place, which, of course, is preposterous..
Paul wasn't lying because God is very near to us through his spirit. You're thinking in spatial terms, which really has no meaning to what Paul wrote.
God's spirit is his presence. God dwells in the holiest place, so if you think God, the father, himself is dwelling in you, then that has to mean that you are the holiest place, which, of course, is preposterous..
On the mercy seat the Spirit of the Lord sits on the throne and on the right side/right hand is Jesus.He is represented as the blood because of his work on the cross.
sitting on the left side/hand on the Spirit of the Lord is the water.
The cherubim's on the Ark of the Covenant represent God's two witnesses.
Jesus is all three of these things.He is the Spirit,water and the blood.
The Holy Spirit is as a firmament, separating the water's below from the waters above.
Genesis 1:7-8
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Having the Holy Spirit is having heaven on earth and God dwelling with men.
Matthew 25:32-33
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Ecclesiastes 10:2-3
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.
Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.
2 Chronicles 18:18
And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
Our first physical birth was of water and our second spiritual birth was of the Spirit the fullness of God which is Spirit,water and the blood.
The waters below that are divided from the waters above are those who are of the world, separated from the waters above by the Holy Spirit. Even our feet can represent the waters.You have two stone tablets for feet with the 10 commandments written on them which are the toes,If you walk in God's ways.
You're spiritually walking on waters with the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Left hand, or sitting on the left hand of God can represent the Law, judgement,commandments .
Judges 20:16
Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.
sitting on the left side/hand on the Spirit of the Lord is the water.
The cherubim's on the Ark of the Covenant represent God's two witnesses.
Jesus is all three of these things.He is the Spirit,water and the blood.
The Holy Spirit is as a firmament, separating the water's below from the waters above.
Genesis 1:7-8
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Having the Holy Spirit is having heaven on earth and God dwelling with men.
Matthew 25:32-33
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Ecclesiastes 10:2-3
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.
Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.
2 Chronicles 18:18
And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
Our first physical birth was of water and our second spiritual birth was of the Spirit the fullness of God which is Spirit,water and the blood.
The waters below that are divided from the waters above are those who are of the world, separated from the waters above by the Holy Spirit. Even our feet can represent the waters.You have two stone tablets for feet with the 10 commandments written on them which are the toes,If you walk in God's ways.
You're spiritually walking on waters with the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Left hand, or sitting on the left hand of God can represent the Law, judgement,commandments .
Judges 20:16
Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.
Okay: EPH 4:6, "(There is) one God and Father of all, who Himself is over all and Himself is through all and Himself is in all"
ACTS 17:24-28, "The God Himself who made the world and everything in it is Himself the Lord of heaven and earth... He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else... He Himself is not far from any one of us, for in Himself we live and move and have our being...".
PS 139:7-8, "Where can I go from yourself's Spirit? Where can I flee from yourself's presence?"
ACTS 17:24-28, "The God Himself who made the world and everything in it is Himself the Lord of heaven and earth... He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else... He Himself is not far from any one of us, for in Himself we live and move and have our being...".
PS 139:7-8, "Where can I go from yourself's Spirit? Where can I flee from yourself's presence?"
Anytime a person is cited, "self" is included. Do you think EPH 4:6 means "One God and Father [not Himself] of all, who [not Himself] is above all, and through all, and [not Himself] in you all."?!
In what corner of creation do you think God Himself is not present? Over there? In that atom?
If God Himself is not omnipresent, then He Himself is not omnipotent where He Himself is absent, nor is His Hisself love omni, but my understanding is that God's loving HS is even in hell, because He loves His enemies per MT 5:44&48.
When/where God's Spirit Himself is/becomes non-existent, creation itself will disappear.
In what corner of creation do you think God Himself is not present? Over there? In that atom?
If God Himself is not omnipresent, then He Himself is not omnipotent where He Himself is absent, nor is His Hisself love omni, but my understanding is that God's loving HS is even in hell, because He loves His enemies per MT 5:44&48.
When/where God's Spirit Himself is/becomes non-existent, creation itself will disappear.
That's incorrect. You're just reading onto the text what you want to see.. In the 2 examples I quoted the text actually says "self", ie αυτός . The verses you quoted don't. Therefore, it supports what I'm saying and you're just grasping at straws. I have no idea why you are getting so bent out of shape over something that is so clear and evident.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself (αυτός) shall be with them, and be their God. Revelation 21:3
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself (αυτός) be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28
Well, as a former English teacher IMO you yourself are reading out of the text and semantics what you yourself don't want to see, but why you don't want to see the orthodox doctrine of God's omnipresence sustaining creation is beyond me!
I have calmly and clearly explained reasons why this truth it is evident or obvious via Scripture and logic, so your accusation regarding "getting so bent out of shape" must be the logical fallacy of projecting YOUR attitude. Anyway, happy trails! :^)
I have calmly and clearly explained reasons why this truth it is evident or obvious via Scripture and logic, so your accusation regarding "getting so bent out of shape" must be the logical fallacy of projecting YOUR attitude. Anyway, happy trails! :^)
The Biblical answer about Trinity is found during the baptism of Jesus.
A voice from the Heavens said “This is my son for whom I am well pleased” who we acknowledge to be the voice of The Father.
Then the Holy Spirit descended in the shape of a dove and light.
There are other passages in the Bible about Trinity such as where Jesus Himself said to the apostles to “Go and baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit”
However, the evidence at baptism is more important for me because there were eyewitnesses in there besides John who saw this supernatural event.
So that’s the best Biblical evidence.
With this being said, we still have trouble in this plane of existence occupying space and time in trying to understand how a Creator is 3 in 1 yet uniquely separate.
The closest idea that can make this easier to understand is the concept of dimensions.
Take a look at the 5 minute video below since it requires visualization.
In essence, we in this plane of existence are unable to see how things look on a higher dimension which is why we may have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity from a human point of view.
I know that I won’t be able to understand it fully from a human point of view but I simply trust and am happy that The Trinity has revealed themselves to us humans looking for mercy, salvation and union with God.
A voice from the Heavens said “This is my son for whom I am well pleased” who we acknowledge to be the voice of The Father.
Then the Holy Spirit descended in the shape of a dove and light.
There are other passages in the Bible about Trinity such as where Jesus Himself said to the apostles to “Go and baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit”
However, the evidence at baptism is more important for me because there were eyewitnesses in there besides John who saw this supernatural event.
So that’s the best Biblical evidence.
With this being said, we still have trouble in this plane of existence occupying space and time in trying to understand how a Creator is 3 in 1 yet uniquely separate.
The closest idea that can make this easier to understand is the concept of dimensions.
Take a look at the 5 minute video below since it requires visualization.
In essence, we in this plane of existence are unable to see how things look on a higher dimension which is why we may have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity from a human point of view.
I know that I won’t be able to understand it fully from a human point of view but I simply trust and am happy that The Trinity has revealed themselves to us humans looking for mercy, salvation and union with God.
"Disconnected" is your word, not mine. That God is Creator makes Him distinct and wholly separate from the creation. That, by itself, does not indicate absence from creation.
There is a subtle but critical distinction between panentheism and the omnipresence of God:
“Panentheism” is a constructed word composed of the English equivalents of the Greek terms “pan”, meaning all, “en”, meaning in, and “theism”, derived from the Greek ‘theos’ meaning God. Panentheism considers God and the world to be inter-related with the world being in God and God being in the world" (source: Panentheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy), emphasis added).
There is a subtle but critical distinction between panentheism and the omnipresence of God:
“Panentheism” is a constructed word composed of the English equivalents of the Greek terms “pan”, meaning all, “en”, meaning in, and “theism”, derived from the Greek ‘theos’ meaning God. Panentheism considers God and the world to be inter-related with the world being in God and God being in the world" (source: Panentheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy), emphasis added).
Also to Dino,
Like Eli, I also find the concept of dimensions helpful for understanding God: a point is one dimension, a line is another, a plane adds a third, physical/material space is a fourth, and divine spirit or Word is at least a fifth dimension.
The creation is Spirit/Word manifesting God impersonally in the fourth dimension, and Christ's incarnation was Spirit/Word manifesting in the fourth dimension as a human/person.
We in our human dimension are unable to understand God's higher dimension(s), which is why we may have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity fully from a human point of view.
I agree (50% :^) to simply trust and be happy that the omniloving Trinity/God/GW has been revealed to us humans looking for salvation via creation, Scripture & the HS.
Like Eli, I also find the concept of dimensions helpful for understanding God: a point is one dimension, a line is another, a plane adds a third, physical/material space is a fourth, and divine spirit or Word is at least a fifth dimension.
The creation is Spirit/Word manifesting God impersonally in the fourth dimension, and Christ's incarnation was Spirit/Word manifesting in the fourth dimension as a human/person.
We in our human dimension are unable to understand God's higher dimension(s), which is why we may have trouble understanding the concept of Trinity fully from a human point of view.
I agree (50% :^) to simply trust and be happy that the omniloving Trinity/God/GW has been revealed to us humans looking for salvation via creation, Scripture & the HS.
-
1
- Show all
I disagree strongly. Dimensions are purely physical, and as such, physical/material space is encompassed in the first three. Time is usually (but not always) counted as the fourth dimension (and is also physical). The spirit realm, not being physical, is not one of the dimensions.
The creation is not anything "manifesting God"; it is the result of God's creative words. Jesus' incarnation is God's appearance within creation as a physical, mortal being.
While the Flatland analogy is useful for illustrating both higher dimensions and the spiritual realm, it fails (as all analogies do) to represent wholly and accurately the nature of the Trinity.
Here we agree: while some measure of understanding is necessary, belief where understanding fails is an appropriate response to God.
The creation is not anything "manifesting God"; it is the result of God's creative words. Jesus' incarnation is God's appearance within creation as a physical, mortal being.
While the Flatland analogy is useful for illustrating both higher dimensions and the spiritual realm, it fails (as all analogies do) to represent wholly and accurately the nature of the Trinity.
Here we agree: while some measure of understanding is necessary, belief where understanding fails is an appropriate response to God.