Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

But that citizenship changes when the Lord returns. Get up to speed on Rev 21 & 22 someday. Believe it or not, all the NATIONS will occupy the earth -- not just Israel.

BTW, how many second advents are there?

What is the second advent to you?

During the Millennium the nations outside of Israel will consist of gentiles who survived the Tribulation.
Israel itself will be the homebase for the Lord Jesus Christ's rule on the Throne of David over the Jews as their King.

And.... for all the Christians who now insisted now upon living by weak, or false teachings?
They will not be allowed to reign with Christ for the Millennium.
Only those who seek sound doctrine will be chosen will reign with Him.

Many are called.
Many follow weak or distorted teachings.
Many will not be allowed on earth for the Millennium.
For, many are called (saved).
But only a few will be chosen to reign with Him.

 

[Cranberry]

Well, I need to inform you that, like ADAM, I am not deceived by the lies of Satan
Lucky me huh?

So peddle your Calvinite snake oil somewhere else.

God willing one of these days you will know what it is to be......FREE!

[Jhn 8:32 KJV]
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I am free. Free in Christ.
Which is how I know there is no such thing as your obsession. The Calvanites.

You will never see this I realize. I'm posting this for those who choose to read you still. You will never be aware and able to rightly discuss the Scriptures when hatred and contempt blinds your heart.

 

[Kroogz]

And another thing, when you testify truthfully at your OWN trial (and believe me you, me and everyone else is ON TRIAL right now)

Yeppers! And this is why freewill is mandatory in Gods plan. Not only are we ALL on trial, we can be a WITNESS For or against Christ.

I choose to be a witness FOR Christ and be a willing witness against Satan.

For the unbelievers~~~~Christ lived and died for YOU personally. Anyone , everywhere Can and should believe on Him for their salvation. It's a FREE and universal offer to mankind.....Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

That is the GOOD NEWS and Glorifies Christ. It is a witness for Christ in this epic trial that we are in. ANYTHING else is a witness for Satan.

 

[Kroogz]

They want to bury this Word and put TULIP's over the grave!

"He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, ​

and not only for ours, but also for those of ​

the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

1 John 2:2 contradicts and confuses them.​

They reject it because they can not explain it.​

Therefore, they must reject us.​

​

And follow made up stuff to shield themselves with.​

​

​

.......​

​

If the message can't be refuted........Shoot the messenger.

 

[Inquisitor]

Israel the nation wasn't elected to salvation. God doesn't elect nations to salvation, He elects people.
And those He elects, must become saved.

Which is not what Paul is discussing in Romans.

Not an individual election but a national election.

Israel was severed and the Gentiles nations are grafted in.

Romans 9:25
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people (Gentiles) I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved (Gentiles) I will call ‘beloved.’”

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is,
a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness
did not succeed in reaching that law.

As soon as you said the following, "God doesn't elect nations to salvation, He elects people".

Which is the opposite of Paul's narration in Romans.

What is it you cannot comprehend when you read Romans?

Israel was hardened and that is the nation of Israel, i.e., the old covenant nation of Israel.

Paul mentions a remnant saved by grace in Israel but that is not the primary narration.

That Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

The entire nation of Israel stumbled over Jesus Christ.

 

[Genez]

If the message can't be refuted........Shoot the messenger.

That is why I always tape a photo of myself on their shoe.

They never miss.

 

[Inquisitor]

Look man, Israel the Nation is on the "back burner".
They WILL be re-commissioned when they confess at the SC.

And when they confess as a corporate body at the SC, THEN they will enter into the New Covenant as well.
And THEN they will fulfill their original mandate FAITHFULLY, as Gods nation of priests to the Gentiles in the Millenium.

[Act 1:6 KJV]
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

[Rom 11:25 KJV]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[Luk 13:35 KJV]
Behold, your house (THE HOUSE OF JACOB) is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

It has been two thousand years since Israel was severed from Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote that Israel would be elect again but Paul wrote that before AD 70.

I wonder whether Paul would have held onto the idea that all Israel would be saved.

Given that devastating judgement upon Jerusalem in AD 70.

You may be correct that Israel will repent and believe in Jesus.

Though it seems very unlikely these days given Christians in Israel are only 1.9% of the population.

 

[Kroogz]

And just how does Jn 17:9 harmonize with Jn 3:16 when the former passage is exclusive in nature and the latter, according to FWT, is inclusive in nature? You appear to be totally unaware of what you just did above. You made an attempt to harmonize Jn 3:16 with 17:9 by excluding all those who would never believe in Christ. But this isn't what freewillers believe about this passage. They believe Jn 3:16 is ALL-INCLUSIVE, totally UNIVERSAL. But that isn't what's happening in 17:9. You need to understand Jn 17:9 in light of what Jesus taught in Mat 7:23.

The calvies need to understand that that is a prayer for believers and it is specific............We are His light to the WORLD/ALL OF MANKIND. And He was praying that we would be that light....To the world. To ALL.

John 17:21
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

But we can WILLINGLY reject His command to us. Or put some "limits' on it if we like.

I CHOOSE to go to ALL and accept that He Died for ALL. I have graduated from kindergarten.

 

[cv5]

I am free. Free in Christ.
Which is how I know there is no such thing as your obsession. The Calvanites.

You will never see this I realize. I'm posting this for those who choose to read you still. You will never be aware and able to rightly discuss the Scriptures when hatred and contempt blinds your heart.

You nor any Calvinite on this thread has the slightest idea of what Adam was NOT deceived about. That very pack of lies by which the woman was deceived. You haven't the slightest idea of what's going on in Genesis chapter 3. Like zero.

And until you do you'll be stuck in the Calvinite dungeon, right where @Rufus wants you to be.
And as I stated earlier I am FREE from this wretched Calvinite prison.

Hint: Jesus made reference to these Satanic ("the evil one") lies in the "Lord's prayer". The relevance of which I have already posted on this thread.

 

[rogerg]

Which is not what Paul is discussing in Romans.

Not an individual election but a national election.

Israel was severed and the Gentiles nations are grafted in.

Romans 9:25
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people (Gentiles) I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved (Gentiles) I will call ‘beloved.’”

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is,
a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness
did not succeed in reaching that law.

As soon as you said the following, "God doesn't elect nations to salvation, He elects people".

Which is the opposite of Paul's narration in Romans.

What is it you cannot comprehend when you read Romans?

Israel was hardened and that is the nation of Israel, i.e., the old covenant nation of Israel.

Paul mentions a remnant saved by grace in Israel but that is not the primary narration.

That Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

The entire nation of Israel stumbled over Jesus Christ.

I'm tired of discussing this.

Not an individual election but a national election.

Not unto salvation, which is what I said in my post. Election unto salvation happened on an individual basis only.
And with that, I'm tired of discussing this with you.

 

[cv5]

You may be correct that Israel will repent and believe in Jesus.

Though it seems very unlikely these days given Christians in Israel are only 1.9% of the population.

May be correct? Do you have the slightest idea of what the main purpose for the great tribulation actually is?

 

[Inquisitor]

Israel the nation wasn't elected to salvation. God doesn't elect nations to salvation, He elects people.
And those He elects, must become saved.

The problem is your comprehension of Romans is incorrect.

You simply do not understand Paul narration.

I asked Chat GPT the question below.

Can we then say that Romans is not about an individual election as such. But a more national election.
Given the nation of Israel was severed. The Gentiles are grafted in is more about all Gentile nations have a green light.

ChatGPT said:

Yes, that's a fair interpretation. Romans, particularly chapters 9–11, focuses on God's corporate or national election rather than individual election. Here's why:

1. National Election of Israel: Paul emphasizes that Israel, as a nation, was chosen by God to bring His promises to the world (Romans 9:4-5). However, their failure to achieve righteousness through faith, not works, led to their temporary severance.
2. Inclusion of the Gentile Nations: The metaphor of the olive tree (Romans 11:17-24) reflects the inclusion of Gentiles, but not as a replacement for Israel. Instead, it shows that Gentile nations now have access to God's covenant through faith in Jesus Christ. This is a broad, inclusive invitation, rather than focusing on specific individuals.
3. God's Plan for Israel and the Gentiles: Paul’s argument highlights that Israel’s failure and the Gentiles' inclusion are both part of God’s redemptive plan. The goal is ultimately to save both groups (Romans 11:25-32). Israel’s rejection is temporary, and their restoration is promised.
4. Corporate vs. Individual Election: While individual faith is necessary for salvation, the discussion in Romans 9–11 leans heavily on corporate dynamics—Israel as a nation being chosen, temporarily set aside, and then restored; and the Gentiles as a group being included.

Key Point:
Romans isn't arguing that specific individuals are chosen or rejected in a deterministic way. Instead, it's more about God’s sovereignty in shaping history to include all nations (not just individuals) in His redemptive plan.
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You definitely misunderstand what Paul told us in the letter to the Romans.

Chat GPT confirms that your interpretation of Romans is faulty.

 

[rogerg]

hope you stay away from my Jewish relatives.
You would make it very difficult to explain to them that not all Christians can't think straight.

Perhaps scripture would make a lot more sense to you, if you were able to distinguish between the earthly and the spiritual - or -maybe you don't comprehend too well. The spiritual is what I was addressing in my post.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm tired of discussing this.


Not unto salvation, which is what I said in my post. Election unto salvation happened on an individual basis only.
And with that, I'm tired of discussing this with you.

Because your dead wrong in your understanding of Romans.

 

[rogerg]

The problem is your comprehension of Romans is incorrect.

You simply do not understand Paul narration.

I asked Chat GPT the question below.

Can we then say that Romans is not about an individual election as such. But a more national election.
Given the nation of Israel was severed. The Gentiles are grafted in is more about all Gentile nations have a green light.

ChatGPT said:

Yes, that's a fair interpretation. Romans, particularly chapters 9–11, focuses on God's corporate or national election rather than individual election. Here's why:

1. National Election of Israel: Paul emphasizes that Israel, as a nation, was chosen by God to bring His promises to the world (Romans 9:4-5). However, their failure to achieve righteousness through faith, not works, led to their temporary severance.
2. Inclusion of the Gentile Nations: The metaphor of the olive tree (Romans 11:17-24) reflects the inclusion of Gentiles, but not as a replacement for Israel. Instead, it shows that Gentile nations now have access to God's covenant through faith in Jesus Christ. This is a broad, inclusive invitation, rather than focusing on specific individuals.
3. God's Plan for Israel and the Gentiles: Paul’s argument highlights that Israel’s failure and the Gentiles' inclusion are both part of God’s redemptive plan. The goal is ultimately to save both groups (Romans 11:25-32). Israel’s rejection is temporary, and their restoration is promised.
4. Corporate vs. Individual Election: While individual faith is necessary for salvation, the discussion in Romans 9–11 leans heavily on corporate dynamics—Israel as a nation being chosen, temporarily set aside, and then restored; and the Gentiles as a group being included.

Key Point:
Romans isn't arguing that specific individuals are chosen or rejected in a deterministic way. Instead, it's more about God’s sovereignty in shaping history to include all nations (not just individuals) in His redemptive plan.
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You definitely misunderstand what Paul told us in the letter to the Romans.

Chat GPT confirms that your interpretation of Romans is faulty.

Really? Actually, I couldn't care less what ChatGPT says. So, you use ChatGPT as your spiritual advisor? Really? That explains a lot.
Scripture tells us that it alone should be used for the learning of spiritual doctrine - and ChatGPT didn't tell you that? Huh! Imagine that. I'd stay away from using it then.
And with that, I'm done.

 

[Inquisitor]

May be correct? Do you have the slightest idea of what the main purpose for the great tribulation actually is?

Let Chat GPT have a shot at the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.

The idea that the millennial reign of Jesus (as described in Revelation 20:1–6) involves the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14 is a topic of debate among theologians, and it depends on how one interprets these passages. Let’s break it down:

The 144,000 in Revelation

• Revelation 7:1–8: The 144,000 are described as 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They are protected during the tribulation.
• Revelation 14:1–5: These individuals are described as redeemed, pure, and following the Lamb wherever He goes. They are marked as faithful servants of God.

The identity of the 144,000 is interpreted in various ways:

1. Literal Interpretation: Some believe this refers to 144,000 actual Jewish believers who are set apart for a special mission during the tribulation.
2. Symbolic Interpretation: Others argue that the 144,000 symbolize the full, redeemed people of God (both Jews and Gentiles), emphasizing completeness and covenant faithfulness.

The Millennial Reign (Revelation 20)

• The millennial reign of Christ is depicted as a 1,000-year period where Jesus reigns on earth. During this time, Satan is bound, and the martyrs and faithful reign with Christ.

Key features of the millennial reign:

1. Jewish Fulfillment: Some theologians see this period as the fulfillment of Old Testament promises to Israel, with Christ reigning as the Messianic King (e.g., Isaiah 2:1–4, Ezekiel 37:21–28, Zechariah 14).
2. Global Reign: Others emphasize that Christ's reign will include all believers—both Jews and Gentiles—who share in the blessings of His kingdom.

Connection Between the 144,000 and the Millennial Reign

• The 144,000 could be understood as a special group who play a role in Jesus’ reign, possibly as representatives of faithful Israel.
• However, the millennial reign itself is generally portrayed as involving all the saints who have been redeemed, not exclusively the 144,000. Revelation 20:4 speaks of those who were faithful to Christ, including martyrs, reigning with Him.

Summary
While the 144,000 may have a unique role in God's plan during the tribulation, the millennial reign is broader, involving all of Christ's followers. It is not exclusively about the 144,000 but about the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel and the inclusion of all believers in Christ's kingdom.

 

[rogerg]

Because your dead wrong in your understanding of Romans.

And your dead wrong in your understanding of salvation

 

[Inquisitor]

Really? Actually, I couldn't care less what ChatGPT says. So, you use ChatGPT as your spiritual advisor? Really? That explains a lot.
Scripture tells us that it alone should be used for the learning of spiritual doctrine - and ChatGPT didn't tell you that? Huh! Imagine that. I'd stay away from using it then.
And with that, I'm done.

I told you that Romans is not about individual election.

I used Chat GPT because Chat GPT can read a simple text like Romans. Then provide a summary.

You would be well advised to discard an interpretation that ignores the fuller context.

Your bleeding and you need a medic, rogerg.

 

[Kroogz]

And your dead wrong in your understanding of salvation

What must I do to be saved?

 

[rogerg]

What must I do to be saved?

There is nothing that anyone can do to save themselves. To become saved, one would have had to be elected by God unto salvation from before the foundation the world.