Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Knows yes, chooses, no!

Yes, He knows precisely because he has justly decreed everyone's eternal destiny. He is under NO moral obligation to save anyone.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If you hate TULIP in my opinion you hate the Gospel

In your opinion, well you're entitled to believe a false Gospel. If I hated the Gospel I wouldn't use it to prove you wrong. lol

 

[Rufus]

I can't wrap my mind around it. Why would I want to go to heaven knowing innocent people are in hell? I mean, if God needs to send people to hell for His glory, how many people does he need to send? 10, 100, 1000, 100 000?? Why not just one? Would one poor innocent soul in hell be enough? It's ridiculous.

Pray tell: Who exactly are these "innocent" people? And where is their so-called innocence found in scripture?

 

[Rufus]

In your opinion, well you're entitled to believe a false Gospel. If I hated the Gospel I wouldn't use it to prove you wrong. lol

Didn't Satan use God's Word to tempt Jesus? Why wouldn't his children emulate him?

 

[Rufus]

I was drawn over the course of many years before I became convinced and converted...

It was only after the fear of God was firmly established in me that I became more pliable.

God planted that fear in me through revelation of Himself.

Revelation which as much as I wanted to I could not deny.

It was not something I just decided one day. Oh, God is scary. LOL

No! I fell into the hands of the living Lord.

See what Paul has to say about that...

It is what it took for him, as well.

I can relate totally to what you're saying. No one can understand, let alone, actually believe the Gospel apart from having the Fear of the Lord WITHIN them! A deep dive into the various Wisdom Books in the OT will reveal this fact. So, it should not come as a surprise that the Fear of the Lord is a precious gift promised under the New Covenant! God bestows that godly disposition into his people's hearts (Jer 32:36-41). Another gift that is given that is passively received by helpless people. How merciful is a our Great God and Savior!?

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, I can! It's called being born again! The Word tells us how, believe and be saved!! That's the change!!




Same answer! They are born again! Drawn by the Holy Spirit, Paul was one of them!!

How does such a one obey the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when he is not and cannot be subject to the law of God?

Are you suggesting that he must first be altered from this estate by being born from above for this to transpire? If so, you would be correct. This is exactly what happens in Acts 2:37. If you take the time to read it, you will see the work of God altering their estate. And the outcome is their willingness to respond to the word of God that Peter espouses...v.38.

 

[Rufus]

God already knows where everyone is going. Why would you waste your time and energy?! That's an insult to evangelist ministers who travel to share the Gospel to the lost and care about the condition of their souls. If heaven is just a lottery where the lucky ones get it, I would want no part of it. That is an unjust God.

Such simple-minded thinking! And doesn't the same God who knows all also decree all the means to his ends? Maybe you're more deistic in your thinking than what you realize.... Our place is not question God's commands but to faithfully, trusting that his Word will not return to him void.

And how would God be unjust? Would he be unjust if he saved no one and allowed everyone to do what is right in their own eyes?

 

[Rufus]

When you claim the reference to vessels made for destruction refers to nations you fail to realize nations are populated by people.

Yes,context does mean something.

Aah...a minor detail.

 

[Rufus]

The provision of salvation is for all men, but only those who receceved Christ possessed it. Obviously, not all have it yet as Paul say ' many be made righteous'

Which reduced Christ to a potential savior.

 

[lrs68]

Several verses in the Gospels we see Jesus telling the crowds of people "come unto me" followed by "and I will give you rest, peace, and such."

That means those people had to "choose " to come or to reject the invitation. And we know more rejected the invitation compared to those who accepted.

 

[Rufus]

I can help you out with this one brother. Pray this helps you. You helped me, been a while since I have gone over this!

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

We ACTIVELY( Our will)receive.
elabon elabon G2983 vi 2Aor Act 3 Pl GOT obtained

We ACTIVELY(our will) believe.
pisteuousin pisteuousin G4100 vp Pres Act Dat Pl m ones-BELIEVING ones-believing

Notice the colon at the end of the verse :~~~~Watch for what's coming next!

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The act of being born has nothing to do with man.........Christ does ALL the work.

What they confuse their victims with is trying to make Believing a work. Or to put merit in believing. ALL of the merit is in the object(The Lord Jesus Christ) of faith.

And our faith derives from the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Who convicts the WORLD (ALL MANKIND) concerning sin/UNBELIEF.

If that is what you believe then the Holy Spirit really sucks big time at his ministry since only a remnant is being saved.

Those who "received him" was due to the result of being born of God's will.

 

[Rufus]

Several verses in the Gospels we see Jesus telling the crowds of people "come unto me" followed by "and I will give you rest, peace, and such."

That means those people had to "choose " to come or to reject the invitation. And we know more rejected the invitation compared to those who accepted.

On the other hand, it is written "Many are called (through the Gospel invitation), but few are chosen."

 

[Rufus]

1. God seeks after us.

2. He makes us aware that we need His work on the Cross because He makes us realize we're lost in sin.

3. We realize that we need Him.

4. We repent (God doesn't repent but we repent).

The issue is did we repent by force or did we repent because we now understand we need to?

If we repent because we now understand we need to then it's a decision made by choice.

That is Free will.

We repent because God rescues his people from power of sin, the the flesh and the devil. How can God "force" the helpless to do anything. Straight thinking people realize that helpless people are powerless and that when someone rescues it's an act of mercy and grace, such as seen in Good Samaritan Parable. Did the Good Samaritan force himself upon the "half dead" crime victim?

 

[lrs68]

On the other hand, it is written "Many are called (through the Gospel invitation), but few are chosen."

Being called also can cover more than just salvation but also what your role in God is.

 

[Rufus]

yes it is I am not saying it isn't but to the point of acceptance there has to be a decision we are told to believe believing is a verb which means action on our part

But we are not robots with no choice otherwise we would have an excuse on judgement day the will of God is that all come to salvation and truth but we can choose to reject or accept it his will transforms us but we have to be willing to let him.
He draws us but the final choice is ours or else we would be blaming him on judgement day when not accepted into his kingdom

No one will have any excuse on judgement day because all men know they are far from perfect.

And, yes, we do actually believe -- but only by God's grace. No Grace, no Faith!

 

[lrs68]

We repent because God rescues his people from power of sin, the the flesh and the devil. How can God "force" the helpless to do anything. Straight thinking people realize that helpless people are powerless and that when someone rescues it's an act of mercy and grace, such as seen in Good Samaritan Parable. Did the Good Samaritan force himself upon the "half dead" crime victim?

We repent because we understand we need to. People without understanding naturally don't choose things just because they suddenly want to. They normally make decisions because they understand what the results are for choosing that decision.

 

[Rufus]

Being called also can cover more than just salvation but also what your role in God is.

Not in the context of that particular passage. Besides, being chosen by God to play a designated role in his kingdom cannot be understood apart from people already being saved -- unless, of course,you think the passage is talking about the Nebuchadnezzars or Cyrus' of this world. True, conscious, acknowledged service to God, however, demands godly servants.

 

[Rufus]

We repent because we understand we need to. People without understanding naturally don't choose things just because they suddenly want to. They normally make decisions because they understand what the results are for choosing that decision.

But NO ONE understands (Rom 3:11). God hating people suppress truth about him, wanting nothing to do with him.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, I can! It's called being born again! The Word tells us how, believe and be saved!! That's the change!!




Same answer! They are born again! Drawn by the Holy Spirit, Paul was one of them!!

Nope, nope, nope... we can't have that, people have to be regenerated first.

You see god set it up so that no one can believe unless He lets them!
It brings god a lot of glory cause apparently he is lacking otherwise.

It is in the scripture ... just cut and paste a few verses together out of context and you can see it too!

......and where it states "believe" in your mind you have to make so that means "gifted belief" cause that is actually the right way, it is just that one has to become a Calvinists to see it!

 

[Inquisitor]

@Genez

Tulip is the Gospel

The Gospel is defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

Tulip is a theology and was not defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

You are altering the definition of words in the New Testament.