Woman first....what do you think?

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May 10, 2011
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#81
To his point (which you agree with), the woman was the one who was deceived or beguiled (Gen. 3:13, 2 Cor. 11:3).

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

To your point, what was the result of Eve's deception? It was simply this.

Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

In other words, Eve's deception resulted in women having sorrow in conception, and in women (wives, in context) having a desire to rule over their own husbands.

What about Adam?

Unlike Eve, he was not deceived, but his actions were the result of direct disobedience to what the LORD had commanded him, and the results or consequences of his willful disobedience far outweigh the results of Eve's deception.

For example:

Gen 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

The direct results or consequences of Adam's willful disobedience were a cursed ground, and physical death, or man returning to the ground/dust from which he was initially formed.

As Paul said:

Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It was by Adam's sin or willful disobedience that many were made sinners, and it is through his offence that death reigned by one. Furthermore, Adam's disobedience brought judgment upon all men to condemnation. Worse still, as Paul went on to explain, Adam's disobedience negatively affected creation itself.

Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Here, creation is likened to a pregnant woman who is groaning and travailing in pain as she is waiting to be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Who subjected it to this bondage or corruption? Him, Adam, who has subjected the same through his act of willful disobedience.

Anyhow, my point, which pertains to your point, is this:

MAN, and not woman, is primarily responsible for this earth's mess, so, rather than men slinging insults at women (not that many women aren't exceedingly sinful themselves), or rather than men seeking to blame all of this world's problems upon women, how about men start taking accountability for their own actions while stepping up to the plate and doing what God ordained them to do.

Sounds like a plan to me...
I'm not sure if i agree with his point or not, he hasn't even clarified what his point is. But I do agree that Eve was deceived and transgressed first, whereas Adam willfully sinned (maybe to please her?). I wonder what would have happened if, instead of following her in sin, he had manned up and beseeched God to forgive her? :unsure: He WAS supposed to be looking out for her, after all.....

Anyways, yes I do completely agree that God can and will do mighty works in His church when the believers focus more on what they are personally called to do, rather than what they don't think God would call others to. Pride and striving for superiority are big problems in church, and NEITHER gender is incapable of transgressing when it comes to those sins!

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
 
May 10, 2011
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#82
There is a reason why Christians young in their faith should not desire to teach as it seems you desire or are trying to do.
Ah yes, 1 Timothy chapter 3...... funny, we don't hear a lot about that passage but it's very important:

4An overseer must manage his own household well and keep his children under control, with complete dignity. 5For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care chu for therch of God? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same condemnation as the devil. 7Furthermore, he must have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the snare of the devil.
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
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#83
Well for one, the Bible mentions Peter's MIL. Matt. 8: 14-15 There is nothing in scripture that prevents any person from desiring to be a disciple of Christ (actually we are ALL disciples of Christ if we follow Him) from to marry, just as there is nothing in scripture that states you should not be married.

There is actually only one stipulation with regards to marriage wherein in seems an 'overseer' should be married. It would be preferable for many reasons; one being that he should not be tempted in obvious ways. For that matter, and since you seem to be so interested in sin in churches, are you not aware of all the situations in which pastors or other men in positions of authority have seduced and had sex with members of their congregations? You know, you really seem to pride yourself on your 'knowledge', but it is not evident in what your present as proof of what you are writing here.

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. I Tim. 3: 2-5

There is a reason why Christians young in their faith should not desire to teach as it seems you desire or are trying to do.
A lot of the apostles were married eventually, i wasn't aware and now i know. (y)
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
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#84
Well I just arrived on this thread and I have not read the entire thing but this quote from the op on the first page is more than a little selective in a very prejudicial sense and seems to serve an agenda.

What makes you the expert or wanna be teacher here, with but 3 years saved and not being married? What experience do you have to make a very sweeping statement that 'we' are seeing fallen women having a prideful desire for equality and or superiority' and that it is a widespread problem in churches ALL over? Worse, how do you perceive that opinion to be proven by the book of Romans?

I do not hesitate to say that you are playing fast and loose with the book of Romans and this has led to your silly determination that somehow God only speaks to address your perceptions of women, garnered most likely from men who like to blame women for most things just like Adam did when God tapped him on the shoulder with regards to his eating the forbidden fruit IRREGARDLESS of the fact he tried to blame Eve. You know, God did not accept that blame then and I doubt He does so now.
Brother, take the time and do the research and then come back and let's talk about what you discovered about the percentage of women today becoming pastors. And not just woman pastors, gay woman pastors.
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
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#85
I know she was :rolleyes:. Her husband also blamed her when he made the decision to follow her in transgression. Which is what some men in the church are doing today, blaming issues on "prideful women" rather than men shirking their spiritual responsibilities. If you feel that male-ness alone is a mandate from God to be a strong leader, then shouldn't a fallen, prideful woman be no match for a spiritual male?

I'm curious what your point is, your OP was an interesting premise but you seem to have spiraled away from it. Clarify?

Take your time with your response! ;):giggle:
so you think it is ok for woman to be pastors? please explain.
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
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#87
Blah blah blah. The only issue I'm dealing with is constant disgust at "Christian" men who treat women as subservient and inferior while quoting Scripture to justify their attitudes.
I never said woman are less then men, if i did then copy and paste the words i wrote that said this please,
what i did say was what God said... I love woman and support many, but i don't support sin and disobedience to Gods word.
I hope you see the difference. God bless.
 
Jun 30, 2015
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#89
Brother, take the time and do the research and then come back and let's talk about what you discovered about the percentage of women today becoming pastors. And not just woman pastors, gay woman pastors.
Since you opened that ugly can of worms, you can first account for all the gay male pastors, the pedophile male pastors, the thieving male pastors, the maritally unfaithful male pastors and the heretical male pastors.

Good luck with that. Your hypocrisy will continue to undo your argument until you accept that you don't have one... at which point you should be silent.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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#90
Brother, take the time and do the research and then come back and let's talk about what you discovered about
the percentage of women today becoming pastors. And not just woman pastors, gay woman pastors.
While any are about this task, you could also look up Gretta Vosper. Of course it should come as no surprise
that this sort of thing is happening in the very progressive church known as United, where the head person

was an openly practising homosexual. Gary Paterson was the first openly gay man to lead the United Church
of Canada as Moderator in 2012. Paterson's husband, Tim Stevenson, was the first openly gay man ordained
as a minister by the United Church in 1992.
 
Jun 30, 2015
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#92
I never said woman are less then men, if i did then copy and paste the words i wrote that said this please,
what i did say was what God said... I love woman and support many, but i don't support sin and disobedience to Gods word.
Good... then don't treat God's word poorly by taking bits of it out of context and implying what it simply does not say! Take the time to study it carefully before making pronouncements!
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
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#95
Just so everyone is clear...I am not against woman not do I believe men are "better", I have
Good... then don't treat God's word poorly by taking bits of it out of context and implying what it simply does not say! Take the time to study it carefully before making pronouncements!
That's not what I did and if so please copy and paste where I poorly treated my Heavenly Fathers words.
 

JMH

Active member
Nov 30, 2024
175
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#97
Since you opened that ugly can of worms, you can first account for all the gay male pastors, the pedophile male pastors, the thieving male pastors, the maritally unfaithful male pastors and the heretical male pastors.

Good luck with that. Your hypocrisy will continue to undo your argument until you accept that you don't have one... at which point you should be silent.
You make no sense at all brother,

God bless,
 
Jun 30, 2015
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You make no sense at all brother,

God bless,
In your response to "ocean", you said, "let's talk about what you discovered about the percentage of women today becoming pastors. And not just woman pastors, gay woman pastors."

You opened a side issue (gay females as pastors). Since you want "ocean" to account for them (the side issue is completely irrelevant to this thread topic), how about you account for all the miserable failures among male pastors... just so the playing field is even.