Yes I believe it with all of my heart and am willing to go head-to-head with you or anyone in discussion. But let everything be done decently and in order
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes I believe it with all of my heart and am willing to go head-to-head with you or anyone in discussion. But let everything be done decently and in order
op: Is Eschatology or prophecies a “salvation issue”?
No.
The "Salvation Issue" Is Biblically boiled down to belief/receiving "The Love Of The Truth":
hearing About "God's Gracious Offer To "lost sinners", and them 'repenting' and trusting Only In
The Lord Jesus Christ, and In His Finished Work On Calvary, His Burial, And In His Resurrection:
See God's Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love!
Biblically Confirmed By Many Plain, Clear, and Understandable Passages!:
God's OPERATION On All [ Repeat: ALL ] His New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Thus, no, "understanding/misunderstanding" prophecies/eschatology is NOT a "Salvation Issue."
Amen.
No.
Precious friend, @JS1789, not to worry, God Is Sufficiently Able and Powerful Enough To
"Keep" all of His family "Saved For ETERNITY."
The "Salvation Issue" Is Biblically boiled down to belief/receiving "The Love Of The Truth":
hearing About "God's Gracious Offer To "lost sinners", and them 'repenting' and trusting Only In
The Lord Jesus Christ, and In His Finished Work On Calvary, His Burial, And In His Resurrection:
See God's Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love!
Biblically Confirmed By Many Plain, Clear, and Understandable Passages!:
God's OPERATION On All [ Repeat: ALL ] His New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
Thus, no, "understanding/misunderstanding" prophecies/eschatology is NOT a "Salvation Issue."
Amen.
Yes agree.
Very informative post.
I appreciate how you tie it together.
I was thinking about very simple short statements that Jesus made, but I am thinking there is another thread for that discussion.
I understand your reasoning here, I think my view is that if the person can clearly explain the Gospel that is for more important to me than a person's eschatological views.
I myself would not think, "oh they are post-mill they must not be Christian"
I just do not think the litmus test or indicator for a person being a "believer" is their eschatological position, unless I have missed it in scripture.
Notice in Daniel 12 that Daniel is told the words of the prophecy of the end of time are sealed up and not for him to know. That chapter gives just a very brief overview of that time; the rest was sealed to natural Israel because it did not pertain to them, just as all of the prophecies for Israel that were fulfilled in Christ do not pertain to us and our time.
On the other hand, John was given a little opened scroll and told to prophecy its contents in vivid detail about the end of time. That which was sealed to Daniel and natural Israel was revealed to John because Revelation pertains to us, the spiritual Israel
On the other hand, John was given a little opened scroll and told to prophecy its contents in vivid detail about the end of time. That which was sealed to Daniel and natural Israel was revealed to John because Revelation pertains to us, the spiritual Israel
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Daniel 12:8-9
And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. Revelation 10:8
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Revelation 10:11
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
I don't think that either. In other words, I was not seeking to imply that someone with a wrong eschatological belief system is not a Christian. Instead, I was just seeking to give an example of how a wrong eschatological belief system could potentially be problematic for the person who holds to it.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
When you're as desperate as I am, any sort of "connection" will do.Yes I see .. a tangential connection.
When you're as desperate as I am, any sort of "connection" will do.
You are hilarious!
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
No, salvation has to do with grace, and mercy, God setting His love on the elect. End times is important, but not a salvation issue, unless someone denies the return of the Lord Jesus.
J
JS1789
Guest
Part 1 of my reply.
Sorry for the late response. I appreciate all the responses. I guess I should have specified who that kind of “someone” is.
Suppose someone is a born again individual (Jn. 3:5), who has believed and obeyed the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16, 10:16), is striving to live for Him, is a seeker of the will of God, but either attends a place who is sincerely off on their misunderstanding on certain prophetic books such as the OT prophets or Revelation, or the individual seeker is. But both the people at the place of worship and the individual seeker are striving to live for Jesus daily in the midst of their imperfections.
Some biblical topics are complex, mysterious, especially concerning prophetic passages of things that either have or have not unfolded. There will always be a point at which we disagree on certain things. If our judgment or belief on mysterious or challenging issues are off or incorrect, do we really believe Christ will not allow us into heaven?
I think even in disagreements there can be common ground and unity to be found or worked with. I don’t think God will condemn us if we are incorrect on what a prophet wrote about, but I guess it depends on what exactly one would be incorrect about and what they are believing about it. I also believe it’s possible to be mistaken but not be in error, or for a verse to have more than one biblical application that does no harm to one’s soul.
I believe we would all agree that having a strong relationship with Jesus is far more important than understanding prophecy. The best we can do is be ready for Him (Mt. 24:44; Lk. 12:40), fix our eyes on Him (Heb. 12:2, 5:9) and spread God’s love to all, just as He spread His for the entire world (John 3:16). This type of love that we are to have distinguishes us from the dark world, as it’s a light that glorifies God and can lead one to salvation (Matt. 5:16; Is. 49:6; Acts 13:47). Some of the Jews who rejected Jesus didn’t know or believe in Him until the events after the cross. Since they had access to the Old Testament scriptures (Jn. 5:39; Mk. 12:10; Nehemiah 7:2; 2 Kings 22:8) still had an incorrect understanding about the prophecies concerning Jesus (Jn. 10:20, 24-25) and His kingdom (Acts 1:6), otherwise they would have believed and and not rejected Him (Mk. 8:31; Lk. 9:22), then who is to say I don’t have some misunderstandings about the prophetic verses as well, or the end times? I’m not going to be arrogant to say I have it completely figured out and understood, because I don’t. There are times where we do not fully understand (Acts 2:39, 10:14) but then later on you’re fully aware (Acts 11:18; 15:7-9). Daniel was astonished and none understood his vision either (Daniel 8:27).
While prophecy and the end times are important and interesting to discuss, our soul’s salvation is more important (Mk. 8:36-37). One can be completely right about every prophecy in the Bible, but if they are not “in Christ” (Gal. 3:26-27), what good is it? The gospel is of first importance, which is why Paul delivered it first of all to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 15:3). Some discussions aren’t worth having when there are souls that are still lost and in need of saving.
Having said that, some of the views of prophecy or the end times can be dangerous for one to believe or hold.
Other than that, I hope to God that He has mercy on the people who have different views that are not dangerous to the degree of others, but that’s completely up to Him (Rom. 9:15).
We should show modesty and humility about things we do not fully understand, and the things we do understand, we should in humility and meekness, gently correct those who are in opposition of the truth (2 Tim. 2:25; cf. 1 Peter 3:15; Col. 4:6). We ourselves should also be open for correction and instruction, not against it (Prov. 1:7, 22, 8:33-36, 12:1, 15:32, 18:2; Ps. 50:17). If we find ourselves in grave serious error, then we need to change, conform our beliefs/ways to the truth, even if it goes against what we were always taught.
I think it’s best to find things which we agree on with others who identify as Christian and work from there. Establishing meaningful connections and relationships with others are important. As fascinating as end times or prophecies can be to discuss, if a view does not think beyond or go above that which is written (1 Cor. 4:6) to the point of causing one to be eternally damned, then we should not let it divide.
There are different views on verses, and I suspect whatever one’s view is on the end times is the view one will take on those verses.
I’m not saying not to study prophecies concerning the end times or other things, but let us not become obsessed with it to the point that’s all we talk about to the point that we lose sight on growing and developing a strong relationship with Jesus and others. In all humility, allow ourselves to show one another the same mercy, kindness and be gracious to others in the same manner that we would want others to show and do to us (Mt. 7:12).
Our knowledge and perfect obedience is not our Saviour from sin. Jesus is our Saviour from our sins. No one has perfect understanding or perfect obedience before or after, and His grace alone will cover our faults as long as we are walking in the light (1 John 1:7). This also includes continuing to have a repentant heart and continuing to follow Jesus.
God knows our motives, sincerity and our understanding. He knows whether we are sincerely trying to understand the scriptures the best we can. He knows our hearts/minds/intentions as to what our intentions are when we go to the scriptures in trying to understand them. God wants us seeking Him. Everyone believes what they believe is correct, otherwise they wouldn’t believe it. Since I am not omniscient, there are some things I’m wrong on, but there’s a big difference in being wrong on things in a willful state of rebellion that transgress/sins against God and His word than there is a sincere and honest misunderstanding. No one knows everything right off the bat, and the Christian life is about growing.
When I first became a Christian I didn’t know nowhere near as much as I know now, if I had died would I have died lost in sin? Even people who have been saved for decades might not know all there is to know about Christ and the Spirit, or some other theological or doctrinal issue, so at the end of the day God’s mercy and grace has to come in to play somewhere—both for the babes in Christ and the mature in Christ. I’m sure there were also things that I was not correct on or didn’t know or fully understand about, but looking back, had I had died, I don’t believe it would have caused me to have iniquity or sin to be eternally lost.
As long as the belief is not sinful, against Christ’s doctrine, thinking beyond what is written, denying the essentials, damnable heresy, advocating or promoting sin, vain worship, causing people to deny the Lord, contradicts the nature of God, changing the way of salvation, altering God’s word, causing one to remain outside of Christ, rejects the truth about something salvific, or errs from the truth, etc etc.
While my understanding on certain things is far from perfect, what I do know is founded on the word of truth. Thankfully, salvation is not based on perfect knowledge or else no one would be saved. Rather than being judged on our knowledge in our studies, we are judged on our faithfulness and growth of a Christian.
A good rule of thumb is that interpretations that cause theological heresy in belief or sins in practice are to be avoided. Beneath that, it is more open to judgment.
Since sin is what causes us to have iniquities and iniquities causes us to be separated from God (Is. 59:2), a doctrine that would cause one to be separated from Him if persisted in, would be one that would either condone sin, cause one to live in sin, or believe something sinful.
If a position on a particular verse or topic isn’t the kind that would be destructive to one’s soul or others if believed, or if it is not error in doctrine and of the Christian life, then one can believe it.
Some questions I now ask myself are…is this belief or teaching damnable heresy? Is it going to cause one to deny the Lord that bought them? (whether directly or indirectly through their teaching or belief).
Luke 6:46 comes to mind. Will a teaching cause one to call Him Lord but not do the things He say? Not doing the things He says would in a way be indirectly denying Him]. Is it bringing upon themselves [or others] swift destruction? (2 Peter 2:1).
If it falls under one of those categories, then we are not to believe it.
Here are some quotes from people who are saying what I’m trying to say
“I primarily don’t focus on eschatology because it doesn’t promote love among the brethren, which is the only way Jesus said the world would know we are His. This was His desire for us (John 13:35; 17:23-24). And since His desire for mutual love and the “unity of the faith”(Eph.4:13) seems to be the goal, shouldn’t this be ours too? Just a thought…. I don’t focus on eschatology because the Father’s perfect love has cast out all my fear of these things. I’m living as a citizen of heaven now, from which I eagerly wait for His return (Phil.3:20).”
— Mel Wild
“Theological humility recognizes that this is a difficult doctrine to formulate, that many people change their mind on the End Times and that humility is appropriate while holding to this doctrine.”
— David Dunham
John Frame speaks of the importance of doing theology in love when he writes:
“Positively, we must learn to theologize in love (Eph. 4:15), a love that edifies and that promotes unity, not division. Theology ought to seek and promote reconciliation among brethren….” (The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God, 327)
Sorry for the late response. I appreciate all the responses. I guess I should have specified who that kind of “someone” is.
Suppose someone is a born again individual (Jn. 3:5), who has believed and obeyed the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16, 10:16), is striving to live for Him, is a seeker of the will of God, but either attends a place who is sincerely off on their misunderstanding on certain prophetic books such as the OT prophets or Revelation, or the individual seeker is. But both the people at the place of worship and the individual seeker are striving to live for Jesus daily in the midst of their imperfections.
Some biblical topics are complex, mysterious, especially concerning prophetic passages of things that either have or have not unfolded. There will always be a point at which we disagree on certain things. If our judgment or belief on mysterious or challenging issues are off or incorrect, do we really believe Christ will not allow us into heaven?
I think even in disagreements there can be common ground and unity to be found or worked with. I don’t think God will condemn us if we are incorrect on what a prophet wrote about, but I guess it depends on what exactly one would be incorrect about and what they are believing about it. I also believe it’s possible to be mistaken but not be in error, or for a verse to have more than one biblical application that does no harm to one’s soul.
I believe we would all agree that having a strong relationship with Jesus is far more important than understanding prophecy. The best we can do is be ready for Him (Mt. 24:44; Lk. 12:40), fix our eyes on Him (Heb. 12:2, 5:9) and spread God’s love to all, just as He spread His for the entire world (John 3:16). This type of love that we are to have distinguishes us from the dark world, as it’s a light that glorifies God and can lead one to salvation (Matt. 5:16; Is. 49:6; Acts 13:47). Some of the Jews who rejected Jesus didn’t know or believe in Him until the events after the cross. Since they had access to the Old Testament scriptures (Jn. 5:39; Mk. 12:10; Nehemiah 7:2; 2 Kings 22:8) still had an incorrect understanding about the prophecies concerning Jesus (Jn. 10:20, 24-25) and His kingdom (Acts 1:6), otherwise they would have believed and and not rejected Him (Mk. 8:31; Lk. 9:22), then who is to say I don’t have some misunderstandings about the prophetic verses as well, or the end times? I’m not going to be arrogant to say I have it completely figured out and understood, because I don’t. There are times where we do not fully understand (Acts 2:39, 10:14) but then later on you’re fully aware (Acts 11:18; 15:7-9). Daniel was astonished and none understood his vision either (Daniel 8:27).
While prophecy and the end times are important and interesting to discuss, our soul’s salvation is more important (Mk. 8:36-37). One can be completely right about every prophecy in the Bible, but if they are not “in Christ” (Gal. 3:26-27), what good is it? The gospel is of first importance, which is why Paul delivered it first of all to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 15:3). Some discussions aren’t worth having when there are souls that are still lost and in need of saving.
Having said that, some of the views of prophecy or the end times can be dangerous for one to believe or hold.
Other than that, I hope to God that He has mercy on the people who have different views that are not dangerous to the degree of others, but that’s completely up to Him (Rom. 9:15).
We should show modesty and humility about things we do not fully understand, and the things we do understand, we should in humility and meekness, gently correct those who are in opposition of the truth (2 Tim. 2:25; cf. 1 Peter 3:15; Col. 4:6). We ourselves should also be open for correction and instruction, not against it (Prov. 1:7, 22, 8:33-36, 12:1, 15:32, 18:2; Ps. 50:17). If we find ourselves in grave serious error, then we need to change, conform our beliefs/ways to the truth, even if it goes against what we were always taught.
I think it’s best to find things which we agree on with others who identify as Christian and work from there. Establishing meaningful connections and relationships with others are important. As fascinating as end times or prophecies can be to discuss, if a view does not think beyond or go above that which is written (1 Cor. 4:6) to the point of causing one to be eternally damned, then we should not let it divide.
There are different views on verses, and I suspect whatever one’s view is on the end times is the view one will take on those verses.
I’m not saying not to study prophecies concerning the end times or other things, but let us not become obsessed with it to the point that’s all we talk about to the point that we lose sight on growing and developing a strong relationship with Jesus and others. In all humility, allow ourselves to show one another the same mercy, kindness and be gracious to others in the same manner that we would want others to show and do to us (Mt. 7:12).
Our knowledge and perfect obedience is not our Saviour from sin. Jesus is our Saviour from our sins. No one has perfect understanding or perfect obedience before or after, and His grace alone will cover our faults as long as we are walking in the light (1 John 1:7). This also includes continuing to have a repentant heart and continuing to follow Jesus.
God knows our motives, sincerity and our understanding. He knows whether we are sincerely trying to understand the scriptures the best we can. He knows our hearts/minds/intentions as to what our intentions are when we go to the scriptures in trying to understand them. God wants us seeking Him. Everyone believes what they believe is correct, otherwise they wouldn’t believe it. Since I am not omniscient, there are some things I’m wrong on, but there’s a big difference in being wrong on things in a willful state of rebellion that transgress/sins against God and His word than there is a sincere and honest misunderstanding. No one knows everything right off the bat, and the Christian life is about growing.
When I first became a Christian I didn’t know nowhere near as much as I know now, if I had died would I have died lost in sin? Even people who have been saved for decades might not know all there is to know about Christ and the Spirit, or some other theological or doctrinal issue, so at the end of the day God’s mercy and grace has to come in to play somewhere—both for the babes in Christ and the mature in Christ. I’m sure there were also things that I was not correct on or didn’t know or fully understand about, but looking back, had I had died, I don’t believe it would have caused me to have iniquity or sin to be eternally lost.
As long as the belief is not sinful, against Christ’s doctrine, thinking beyond what is written, denying the essentials, damnable heresy, advocating or promoting sin, vain worship, causing people to deny the Lord, contradicts the nature of God, changing the way of salvation, altering God’s word, causing one to remain outside of Christ, rejects the truth about something salvific, or errs from the truth, etc etc.
While my understanding on certain things is far from perfect, what I do know is founded on the word of truth. Thankfully, salvation is not based on perfect knowledge or else no one would be saved. Rather than being judged on our knowledge in our studies, we are judged on our faithfulness and growth of a Christian.
A good rule of thumb is that interpretations that cause theological heresy in belief or sins in practice are to be avoided. Beneath that, it is more open to judgment.
Since sin is what causes us to have iniquities and iniquities causes us to be separated from God (Is. 59:2), a doctrine that would cause one to be separated from Him if persisted in, would be one that would either condone sin, cause one to live in sin, or believe something sinful.
If a position on a particular verse or topic isn’t the kind that would be destructive to one’s soul or others if believed, or if it is not error in doctrine and of the Christian life, then one can believe it.
Some questions I now ask myself are…is this belief or teaching damnable heresy? Is it going to cause one to deny the Lord that bought them? (whether directly or indirectly through their teaching or belief).
Luke 6:46 comes to mind. Will a teaching cause one to call Him Lord but not do the things He say? Not doing the things He says would in a way be indirectly denying Him]. Is it bringing upon themselves [or others] swift destruction? (2 Peter 2:1).
If it falls under one of those categories, then we are not to believe it.
Here are some quotes from people who are saying what I’m trying to say
“I primarily don’t focus on eschatology because it doesn’t promote love among the brethren, which is the only way Jesus said the world would know we are His. This was His desire for us (John 13:35; 17:23-24). And since His desire for mutual love and the “unity of the faith”(Eph.4:13) seems to be the goal, shouldn’t this be ours too? Just a thought…. I don’t focus on eschatology because the Father’s perfect love has cast out all my fear of these things. I’m living as a citizen of heaven now, from which I eagerly wait for His return (Phil.3:20).”
— Mel Wild
“Theological humility recognizes that this is a difficult doctrine to formulate, that many people change their mind on the End Times and that humility is appropriate while holding to this doctrine.”
— David Dunham
John Frame speaks of the importance of doing theology in love when he writes:
“Positively, we must learn to theologize in love (Eph. 4:15), a love that edifies and that promotes unity, not division. Theology ought to seek and promote reconciliation among brethren….” (The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God, 327)
J
JS1789
Guest
Part 2
“We may disagree, but it is possible to disagree in love” —David Dunham
“The book of Revelation is a fascinating book, and the debate regarding its interpretation will continue. Despite our various views, there are some common threads upon which Christians agree. {21}. All views believe that God is sovereign and in charge of all that occurs in history and its ultimate conclusion. Except for full preterism and some forms of idealism, all believe in the physical second coming of Christ. All views believe in the resurrection from the dead. All believe there will be a future judgment. All believe in an eternal state in which believers will be with God, and unbelievers will be separated from Him. All agree upon the importance of the study of prophecy and its edification for the body of Christ.
Unfortunately, the debate among Christians has often been harsh and hostile. It is my hope that the debate would continue in a cordial, respectful manner which will challenge every believer to accurately study and interpret the Word. We all await the return of our Lord and together with the saints of all ages say, "Amen, come Lord Jesus!" (Rev. 22:20)
— Four Views of Revelation, 4-Views-of-Revelation.
“Whichever eschatological view we hold, we must hold it humbly because we do not know the future. We can all look backward, but we do not know God's agenda for what's to come. We must be humble and acknowledge that our eschatological view might not be accurate. At the same time, much of the doctrinal teaching in the New Testament has to do with future things, so how we understand God's promises about the future has a dramatic impact on our personal confidence and involvement in the mission Christ gave to the church.”
— RC Sproul
“The Bible shows us, by example, that we cannot have absolute confidence in our answers to the when, where, and how questions of the future. One look at the cryptic prophesies regarding the details of Jesus' incarnation, ministry, and death will show that prior to his first coming, no one could have worked out the details. Surely an Old Testament believer could have read Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53 and known that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of his people. Yet prior to the conquest of Palestine by the Romans, could anyone have envisioned a cross as the mode of execution?” — David E. Longacre
“First, I believe that in the last generation there has been an overemphasis on prophecy … Prophecy is part of the Bible. It should be studied. Yet sometimes prophecy has been discussed to the exclusion of many other vital and urgent doctrines. That is inexcusable when some still do not know about sin or about Christ’s atonement … [Second] that much teaching on prophecy has been directed toward a wrong level of involvement both for the teacher and for the listener. Many are interested in prophecy solely because of a desire to know something that no one else knows, to have the final word on things to come in the future.”
— James Montgomery Boice
All in all, this is my belief on the end times: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ will return, 2) God will judge the world by the Man who He has ordained, Jesus. 3) Both the living and the dead will be judged. 4) Those who are of the saved and righteous will be with Jesus in heaven forevermore (Jn. 14:2-3; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Mt. 25:46). 5) Those who are of the goats/lost will be condemned (Jn. 5:29; Mt. 13:40, 42, 50; 25:41, 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:15, etc etc).
When it comes to the second coming, the most important thing we can do as Christians is to be ready (Mt. 24:44). At the end of the day, we need to be focused on our relationship with Jesus, getting right with Him, spiritually growing, conforming to be like Him, and letting our light shine in this dark world that we live in.
There must be room in Christendom for courteous dispute over differences of interpretation on particular issues, as we all want to be in heaven with Jesus one day. We are to test the spirits and search the scriptures (1 Jn. 4:1; Acts 17:11).
“We may disagree, but it is possible to disagree in love” —David Dunham
“The book of Revelation is a fascinating book, and the debate regarding its interpretation will continue. Despite our various views, there are some common threads upon which Christians agree. {21}. All views believe that God is sovereign and in charge of all that occurs in history and its ultimate conclusion. Except for full preterism and some forms of idealism, all believe in the physical second coming of Christ. All views believe in the resurrection from the dead. All believe there will be a future judgment. All believe in an eternal state in which believers will be with God, and unbelievers will be separated from Him. All agree upon the importance of the study of prophecy and its edification for the body of Christ.
Unfortunately, the debate among Christians has often been harsh and hostile. It is my hope that the debate would continue in a cordial, respectful manner which will challenge every believer to accurately study and interpret the Word. We all await the return of our Lord and together with the saints of all ages say, "Amen, come Lord Jesus!" (Rev. 22:20)
— Four Views of Revelation, 4-Views-of-Revelation.
“Whichever eschatological view we hold, we must hold it humbly because we do not know the future. We can all look backward, but we do not know God's agenda for what's to come. We must be humble and acknowledge that our eschatological view might not be accurate. At the same time, much of the doctrinal teaching in the New Testament has to do with future things, so how we understand God's promises about the future has a dramatic impact on our personal confidence and involvement in the mission Christ gave to the church.”
— RC Sproul
“The Bible shows us, by example, that we cannot have absolute confidence in our answers to the when, where, and how questions of the future. One look at the cryptic prophesies regarding the details of Jesus' incarnation, ministry, and death will show that prior to his first coming, no one could have worked out the details. Surely an Old Testament believer could have read Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53 and known that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of his people. Yet prior to the conquest of Palestine by the Romans, could anyone have envisioned a cross as the mode of execution?” — David E. Longacre
“First, I believe that in the last generation there has been an overemphasis on prophecy … Prophecy is part of the Bible. It should be studied. Yet sometimes prophecy has been discussed to the exclusion of many other vital and urgent doctrines. That is inexcusable when some still do not know about sin or about Christ’s atonement … [Second] that much teaching on prophecy has been directed toward a wrong level of involvement both for the teacher and for the listener. Many are interested in prophecy solely because of a desire to know something that no one else knows, to have the final word on things to come in the future.”
— James Montgomery Boice
All in all, this is my belief on the end times: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ will return, 2) God will judge the world by the Man who He has ordained, Jesus. 3) Both the living and the dead will be judged. 4) Those who are of the saved and righteous will be with Jesus in heaven forevermore (Jn. 14:2-3; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; Mt. 25:46). 5) Those who are of the goats/lost will be condemned (Jn. 5:29; Mt. 13:40, 42, 50; 25:41, 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:15, etc etc).
When it comes to the second coming, the most important thing we can do as Christians is to be ready (Mt. 24:44). At the end of the day, we need to be focused on our relationship with Jesus, getting right with Him, spiritually growing, conforming to be like Him, and letting our light shine in this dark world that we live in.
There must be room in Christendom for courteous dispute over differences of interpretation on particular issues, as we all want to be in heaven with Jesus one day. We are to test the spirits and search the scriptures (1 Jn. 4:1; Acts 17:11).
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
That is not what the verse in 1 John says or means in context.
Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, does the Bible say that the righteous will be with Jesus in heaven forevermore.
I think Paul already answered that in Romans 14. Here is verse 1.
Romans 14:1 HCSB
[1] Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don’t argue about doubtful issues.
J
JS1789
Guest
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
1 John 2:29, 3:7, and 10 also makes it clear that one who practice righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
(One that is righteous as He is righteous will be spending eternity in heaven with Jesus)
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
(Anyone who doesn’t practice righteousness is not of God. Thus meaning that the one who is will be considered righteous/righteousness which means they are of God. One who is of God will spend eternity in heaven with Jesus).
Paul talks about pursuing righteousness (1 Tim. 6:11; 2 Tim. 2:22). Peter says that we might live for righteousness (1 Peter 2:24). That further corroborates the point John is writing.
From those passages, if one is not righteous/righteousness (not in of themselves), but by faith in Christ (Phil. 3:9), they will be in heaven with Jesus.
Also, in 2 Tim. 3:16, Scripture is “for instruction in righteousness”.
So, while the scriptures may not explicitly say what I did in my post, the teaching and concept is.
I’m not here to debate, argue, or cause strife. I’m here to learn, and I’ve been in enough discussions online to know whether someone comes across contentious and arrogant.
Your responses to me comes across like that. As the result, I started not to even bother responding, but I felt compelled to.
With your first response, while John wasn’t talking about the end times in that verse concerning love, you’re missing the authors point as to how he is applying it to himself. He is simply saying God’s love casts out any fear that he (the author) has about those things. Some things to ask yourself with his application:
1) Will it cause one to call Jesus Lord but not do the things He say (Lk. 6:46)?
2) Is it bringing upon themselves [or others] swift destruction? (2 Peter 2:1).
3) Is that belief or teaching damnable heresy? (More along the same thoughts of question 2)
4) Is it going to cause one to deny the Lord that bought them (2 Peter 2:1)?
5) Will it cause one to have iniquities that separate them from God (Is. 59:2)?
6) Will it cause one to commit sin or live in sin? (Gal. 5:19-21, etc etc)
If not, then what’s the issue?
As long as the belief is not sinful, against Christ’s doctrine, thinking beyond what is written, denying the essentials, damnable heresy, advocating or promoting sin, vain worship, causing people to deny the Lord, contradicts the nature of God, changing the way of salvation, altering God’s word, causing one to remain outside of Christ, rejects the truth about something salvific, or errs from the truth, etc etc...then what’s the problem?
Instead of telling someone they are wrong, why not try to reason with them and ask them what they mean by that?
Thanks for your input. Time for me to move on now.
J
JS1789
Guest
I'm not sure what's going on between you two, but I think he merely meant that heaven isn't our eternal home. Here's an article that explains it better:
Intermediate (Present) Heaven vs. Eternal Heaven
by Randy Alcorn
by Randy Alcorn
What is the distinction between the intermediate (present) Heaven and the eternal Heaven (the New Earth)?
When a Christian dies, he or she enters into what theologians call the intermediate state, a transitional period between our past lives on Earth and our future resurrection to life on the New Earth. Usually when we refer to “Heaven,” we mean the place that Christians go when they die. When we tell our children “Grandma’s now in Heaven,” we’re referring to the intermediate Heaven.
By definition, an intermediate state or location is temporary. Life in the Heaven we go to when we die, where we’ll dwell prior to our bodily resurrection, is “better by far” than living here on Earth under the Curse, away from the direct presence of God (Philippians 1:23). Still, the intermediate Heaven is not our final destination. Though it will be a wonderful place, the intermediate Heaven is not the place we are made for. It’s not the place God promises to refashion for us to live in forever.
God’s children are destined for life as resurrected beings on a resurrected Earth. We must not lose sight of our true destination. If we do, we’ll be confused and disoriented in our thinking about where, and in what form, we will spend eternity.
Will we live in Heaven forever? The answer to the question depends on what we mean by Heaven. Will we be with the Lord forever? Absolutely. Since Heaven is where God dwells, we’ll always be in Heaven. But will we always be with God in exactly the same place that Heaven is now? No. In the intermediate Heaven, we’ll be in Christ’s presence, and we’ll be joyful, but we’ll be looking forward to our bodily resurrection and permanent relocation to the New Earth.
It bears repeating because it is so commonly misunderstood: When we die, believers in Christ will not go to the Heaven where we’ll live forever. Instead, we’ll go to an intermediate Heaven. In the intermediate Heaven, we’ll await the time of Christ’s return to the earth, our bodily resurrection, the final judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and New Earth. If we fail to grasp this truth, we will fail to understand the biblical doctrine of Heaven. Everything hinges on the resurrection. God does not abandon our bodies, nor does he abandon the earth itself.
It may seem strange to say that the Heaven we go to at death isn’t eternal, yet it’s true. “Christians often talk about living with God ‘in heaven’ forever,” Grudem writes. “But in fact the biblical teaching is richer than that: it tells us that there will be new heavens and a new earth—an entirely renewed creation—and we will live with God there....There will also be a new kind of unification of heaven and earth....There will be a joining of heaven and earth in this new creation.”
Let me suggest an imperfect analogy to illustrate the difference between the intermediate Heaven and the eternal Heaven. Suppose you lived in a homeless shelter in Miami. One day you inherit a beautiful house, fully furnished, on a gorgeous hillside overlooking Santa Barbara, California. With the home comes a wonderful job doing something you’ve always wanted to do. Not only that, but you’ll also be near close family members who moved from Miami many years ago.
On your flight to Santa Barbara, you’ll change planes in Dallas, where you’ll spend an afternoon. Some other family members, whom you haven’t seen in years, will meet you at the Dallas airport and board the plane with you to Santa Barbara. You look forward to seeing them.
Now, when the Miami ticket agent asks you, “Where are you headed?” would you say “Dallas”? No. You would say Santa Barbara, because that’s your final destination. If you mentioned Dallas at all, you would only say, “I’m going to Santa Barbara by way of Dallas.”
When you talk to your friends in Miami about where you’re going to live, would you focus on Dallas? No. You might not even mention Dallas, even though you will be a Dallas-dweller for several hours. Even if you spent a week in Dallas, it wouldn’t be your focus. Dallas is just a stop along the way. Your true destination—your new permanent home—is Santa Barbara.
Similarly, the Heaven we will go to when we die, the intermediate Heaven, is a temporary dwelling place, a stop along the way to our final destination: the New Earth.
(Granted, the Dallas analogy breaks down big time, since being with Jesus and reunited with loved ones in the intermediate Heaven will be immeasurably more wonderful, to say the least, than a lay-over in Dallas! But hopefully you get the point.)
Another analogy is more precise but difficult to imagine, because for most of us it’s outside our experience. Imagine leaving the homeless shelter in Miami and flying to the intermediate location, Dallas, and then turning around and going back home to your place of origin, which has been completely renovated—a New Miami. In this New Miami, you would no longer live in a homeless shelter, but in a beautiful house in a glorious pollution-free, crime-free, sin-free city. So you would end up living not in a new home, but a radically improved version of your old home.
This is what the Bible promises us—we will live with Christ and each other forever, not in the intermediate Heaven, but on the New Earth, where God—Father, Son (eternally incarnate) and Holy Spirit—will be at home with his people.
Of course, God will no more be confined to the New Earth than He is now confined to the intermediate Heaven. God is everywhere present. But his special dwelling, what he regards as his home (and ours) will be on the New Earth, where He will dwell with His people.
Revelation 21:1-3 is explicit on this point: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth....I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God....And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God’” (Revelation 21:1-3).
Heaven, God’s central dwelling place, will one day be with his resurrected people, on the New Earth.
For more information on the subject of Heaven, see Randy Alcorn’s book Heaven.
J
JS1789
Guest
I'm not sure what's going on between you two, but I think he merely meant that heaven isn't our eternal home. Here's an article that explains it better:
Intermediate (Present) Heaven vs. Eternal Heaven
by Randy Alcorn
What is the distinction between the intermediate (present) Heaven and the eternal Heaven (the New Earth)?
When a Christian dies, he or she enters into what theologians call the intermediate state, a transitional period between our past lives on Earth and our future resurrection to life on the New Earth. Usually when we refer to “Heaven,” we mean the place that Christians go when they die. When we tell our children “Grandma’s now in Heaven,” we’re referring to the intermediate Heaven.
By definition, an intermediate state or location is temporary. Life in the Heaven we go to when we die, where we’ll dwell prior to our bodily resurrection, is “better by far” than living here on Earth under the Curse, away from the direct presence of God (Philippians 1:23). Still, the intermediate Heaven is not our final destination. Though it will be a wonderful place, the intermediate Heaven is not the place we are made for. It’s not the place God promises to refashion for us to live in forever.
God’s children are destined for life as resurrected beings on a resurrected Earth. We must not lose sight of our true destination. If we do, we’ll be confused and disoriented in our thinking about where, and in what form, we will spend eternity.
Will we live in Heaven forever? The answer to the question depends on what we mean by Heaven. Will we be with the Lord forever? Absolutely. Since Heaven is where God dwells, we’ll always be in Heaven. But will we always be with God in exactly the same place that Heaven is now? No. In the intermediate Heaven, we’ll be in Christ’s presence, and we’ll be joyful, but we’ll be looking forward to our bodily resurrection and permanent relocation to the New Earth.
It bears repeating because it is so commonly misunderstood: When we die, believers in Christ will not go to the Heaven where we’ll live forever. Instead, we’ll go to an intermediate Heaven. In the intermediate Heaven, we’ll await the time of Christ’s return to the earth, our bodily resurrection, the final judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and New Earth. If we fail to grasp this truth, we will fail to understand the biblical doctrine of Heaven. Everything hinges on the resurrection. God does not abandon our bodies, nor does he abandon the earth itself.
It may seem strange to say that the Heaven we go to at death isn’t eternal, yet it’s true. “Christians often talk about living with God ‘in heaven’ forever,” Grudem writes. “But in fact the biblical teaching is richer than that: it tells us that there will be new heavens and a new earth—an entirely renewed creation—and we will live with God there....There will also be a new kind of unification of heaven and earth....There will be a joining of heaven and earth in this new creation.”
Let me suggest an imperfect analogy to illustrate the difference between the intermediate Heaven and the eternal Heaven. Suppose you lived in a homeless shelter in Miami. One day you inherit a beautiful house, fully furnished, on a gorgeous hillside overlooking Santa Barbara, California. With the home comes a wonderful job doing something you’ve always wanted to do. Not only that, but you’ll also be near close family members who moved from Miami many years ago.
On your flight to Santa Barbara, you’ll change planes in Dallas, where you’ll spend an afternoon. Some other family members, whom you haven’t seen in years, will meet you at the Dallas airport and board the plane with you to Santa Barbara. You look forward to seeing them.
Now, when the Miami ticket agent asks you, “Where are you headed?” would you say “Dallas”? No. You would say Santa Barbara, because that’s your final destination. If you mentioned Dallas at all, you would only say, “I’m going to Santa Barbara by way of Dallas.”
When you talk to your friends in Miami about where you’re going to live, would you focus on Dallas? No. You might not even mention Dallas, even though you will be a Dallas-dweller for several hours. Even if you spent a week in Dallas, it wouldn’t be your focus. Dallas is just a stop along the way. Your true destination—your new permanent home—is Santa Barbara.
Similarly, the Heaven we will go to when we die, the intermediate Heaven, is a temporary dwelling place, a stop along the way to our final destination: the New Earth.
(Granted, the Dallas analogy breaks down big time, since being with Jesus and reunited with loved ones in the intermediate Heaven will be immeasurably more wonderful, to say the least, than a lay-over in Dallas! But hopefully you get the point.)
Another analogy is more precise but difficult to imagine, because for most of us it’s outside our experience. Imagine leaving the homeless shelter in Miami and flying to the intermediate location, Dallas, and then turning around and going back home to your place of origin, which has been completely renovated—a New Miami. In this New Miami, you would no longer live in a homeless shelter, but in a beautiful house in a glorious pollution-free, crime-free, sin-free city. So you would end up living not in a new home, but a radically improved version of your old home.
This is what the Bible promises us—we will live with Christ and each other forever, not in the intermediate Heaven, but on the New Earth, where God—Father, Son (eternally incarnate) and Holy Spirit—will be at home with his people.
Of course, God will no more be confined to the New Earth than He is now confined to the intermediate Heaven. God is everywhere present. But his special dwelling, what he regards as his home (and ours) will be on the New Earth, where He will dwell with His people.
Revelation 21:1-3 is explicit on this point: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth....I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God....And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God’” (Revelation 21:1-3).
Heaven, God’s central dwelling place, will one day be with his resurrected people, on the New Earth.
For more information on the subject of Heaven, see Randy Alcorn’s book Heaven.
I have heard of the NHNE doctrine. I don’t agree with it, but at the same time I don’t think it is something to fuss over
Thanks for the comment.
Yep, I agree that only faith in the Gospel is necessary in order to satisfy God's requirement for salvation, the elaboration of which is called the kerygma to distinguish it from the myriad secondary details, which may be called the didache. (The essential Gospel is simple enough for a child of about eight years old to understand sufficiently to be saved :^)