Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

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Pilgrimshope

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This approach did not dawn on me until a few years ago, so perhaps I need to go first as an example. My two guiding Scriptures are these:

First: 1TM 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This verse is in the same vein as RM 5:8, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." MT 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies, which would include Satan.

Second: 2THS 1:6a - "God is just." This is stated also in RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? Not at all!" and in DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just."
Justness = righteousness, so many other verses are in this vein. Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice for all.

I mine these truths from the Scriptural veins to employ as the starting point of my understanding. What about y'all?
God doesn’t love Satan because of his murderous intent towards US God loves mankind and Satan wants to destroy us.

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hell wasn’t created for mankind but for Satan because he made himself the enemy of Gods beloved children
 

GWH

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God doesn’t love Satan because of his murderous intent towards US God loves mankind and Satan wants to destroy us.

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hell wasn’t created for mankind but for Satan because he made himself the enemy of Gods beloved children
God practices what He preaches, which is for His children to love sinners while hating sin.

Satan, demonic angels and ungodly human souls experience God's just curse or wrath in hell.
 

Pilgrimshope

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God practices what He preaches, which is for His children to love sinners while hating sin.

Satan, demonic angels and ungodly human souls experience God's just curse or wrath in hell.
“God practices what He preaches, “


Yeah but he never said he loved Satan so he didn’t preach it . Do you know of any verse that says God loves Satan ? I don’t I know that he created blazing eternal fire for him seems an odd act for love

Gods issue with Satan is what Satan did to man who God loves
 

GWH

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“God practices what He preaches, “


Yeah but he never said he loved Satan so he didn’t preach it . Do you know of any verse that says God loves Satan ? I don’t I know that he created blazing eternal fire for him seems an odd act for love

Gods issue with Satan is what Satan did to man who God loves
I posted the verses, but apparently you ignored them. In MT 5:44&48 Jesus commands us to love our enemies and be perfect like God.

This is how hell jibes with love:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
 

Pilgrimshope

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I posted the verses, but apparently you ignored them. In MT 5:44&48 Jesus commands us to love our enemies and be perfect like God.

This is how hell jibes with love:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
Yeah I did actually ignore most of what you said because of your attitude and presentation and don’t really have any interest in you teach me anything.
 

GWH

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Yeah I did actually ignore most of what you said because of your attitude and presentation and don’t really have any interest in you teach me anything.
My attitude is what I shared in the OP: to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.

I said that "it seems to me a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture. Thus, I shared a way of interpreting Scripture based on the instruction of Paul that harmonizes divine love and hell. If you reject it, don't blame me for your disinterest in learning anything!
 

Pilgrimshope

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My attitude is what I shared in the OP: to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.

I said that "it seems to me a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture. Thus, I shared a way of interpreting Scripture based on the instruction of Paul that harmonizes divine love and hell. If you reject it, don't blame me for your disinterest in learning anything!
Yeah I apologize your attitude was fine mines been bad today . Honestly do apologize I was wrong

This place isn’t great for me anymore there’s so many unbiblical things in every thread it’s not really a Bible discussion forum anymore it’s more like , well I don’t even really know . But I do apologize your attitude was fine mine wasn’t.
 

Eli1

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Yeah I apologize your attitude was fine mines been bad today . Honestly do apologize I was wrong

This place isn’t great for me anymore there’s so many unbiblical things in every thread it’s not really a Bible discussion forum anymore it’s more like , well I don’t even really know . But I do apologize your attitude was fine mine wasn’t.
No no you're right about him, but that's what makes him lovable. :D To me at least.
 

GWH

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Yeah I apologize your attitude was fine mines been bad today . Honestly do apologize I was wrong

This place isn’t great for me anymore there’s so many unbiblical things in every thread it’s not really a Bible discussion forum anymore it’s more like , well I don’t even really know . But I do apologize your attitude was fine mine wasn’t.
Apology accepted. Hope whatever put you in a bad mood is resolved.

Let us continue with discussion of the attempt to harmonize hell with divine love--an insight gleaned from Scripture and extra-biblical writers that seems logical to me, but what do you think?

Here it is again:

This is how hell jibes with love:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Apology accepted. Hope whatever put you in a bad mood is resolved.

Let us continue with discussion of the attempt to harmonize hell with divine love--an insight gleaned from Scripture and extra-biblical writers that seems logical to me, but what do you think?

Here it is again:

This is how hell jibes with love:

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
“when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.”

yeah I agree God has been telling mankind the same thing from the beginning it’s how you can tell it’s accurate he’s always been saying the same things to us . All I had said was he doesn’t love Satan. He loves mankind. Who Satan tries to kill and devours skews astray

He warned us about it in the beginning

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then we see already the firstborn man is caught in a battle of good and evil thoughts and desires and motivations inwardly but we also note later in scripture his brother works we’re righteous and he was accepted by the lord as he had told cain he would be if he did what’s right. And warned if he did kept doing wrong sin wouod get him and he needed” to rule over sin “

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

That part of his message to
Man “ you repent of doing evil and do good “ has never changed from cain to those alive today. It’s oresent tbroughiut the Bible nearly every page like black and white . Many phrases and angles are used in different books but always the message is the same to mankind “ repent and do what’s good and right in the eyes of God “

and there’s good reason because also on those same repetetive pages is this

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because he’s always said the same thing even in Christ who we know and is that judge we must face

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭

i think what makes it just in my mind is that Gods always been the exact same he says his word to man and it will always come to pass. He’s always warned us of evil and taught us to do good becaue we all have to be judged by our deeds in the end

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He wants us to repent and believe and be saved have our sins remitted in Christ ect instead of being among the dead

 

GWH

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“when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.”

yeah I agree God has been telling mankind the same thing from the beginning it’s how you can tell it’s accurate he’s always been saying the same things to us . All I had said was he doesn’t love Satan. He loves mankind. Who Satan tries to kill and devours skews astray

He warned us about it in the beginning

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then we see already the firstborn man is caught in a battle of good and evil thoughts and desires and motivations inwardly but we also note later in scripture his brother works we’re righteous and he was accepted by the lord as he had told cain he would be if he did what’s right. And warned if he did kept doing wrong sin wouod get him and he needed” to rule over sin “

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

That part of his message to
Man “ you repent of doing evil and do good “ has never changed from cain to those alive today. It’s oresent tbroughiut the Bible nearly every page like black and white . Many phrases and angles are used in different books but always the message is the same to mankind “ repent and do what’s good and right in the eyes of God “

and there’s good reason because also on those same repetetive pages is this

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because he’s always said the same thing even in Christ who we know and is that judge we must face

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-12‬ ‭

i think what makes it just in my mind is that Gods always been the exact same he says his word to man and it will always come to pass. He’s always warned us of evil and taught us to do good becaue we all have to be judged by our deeds in the end

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He wants us to repent and believe and be saved have our sins remitted in Christ ect instead of being among the dead

I agree Pilgrim, but would point out that you can apply what you said about God's will for humanity to Satan, whom He wants to repent and do what is right, and whom He created "good" like the rest of creation before he fell--before tempting A&E to fall. Again, God loves His enemies/sinners, chief of whom is Satan.
 

Pilgrimshope

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I agree Pilgrim, but would point out that you can apply what you said about God's will for humanity to Satan, whom He wants to repent and do what is right, and whom He created "good" like the rest of creation before he fell--before tempting A&E to fall. Again, God loves His enemies/sinners, chief of whom is Satan.
Yeah brother I’m not trying to argue or anything just giving you an old man’s opinion nothing more valuable than that

what im saying is simply , I can’t really apply it to Satan because I’m personally not aware of any scripture saying it. I was wondering if you know of any that show us that it should be applied to Satan ?

aim open to what you’re saying bro I just try to make sure there’s some biblical foundation for a thought begats not being presented out of context . I don’t know the entire Bible so it could be . My opinion is because I’ve never read anything at all about that but plenty about zgod wanting to save man from what Satan did
 

GWH

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Yeah brother I’m not trying to argue or anything just giving you an old man’s opinion nothing more valuable than that

what im saying is simply , I can’t really apply it to Satan because I’m personally not aware of any scripture saying it. I was wondering if you know of any that show us that it should be applied to Satan ?

aim open to what you’re saying bro I just try to make sure there’s some biblical foundation for a thought begats not being presented out of context . I don’t know the entire Bible so it could be . My opinion is because I’ve never read anything at all about that but plenty about zgod wanting to save man from what Satan did
No, but I don't think there is any scripture saying God hates Satan either.
However, we do see scripture saying that God created the world, including Satan, and saw that it was good. (GN 1)
And we do see scripture saying that we should love our enemies and be perfect, like God. (MT 5)
So, what more scripture foundation do we need? Is there any bad reason to believe God loves Satan while hating his sin?
Is there any scripture foundation for not believing God loves everyone, including Satan?

I understand your reluctance, because I was not taught this by anyone other than Jesus by applying the scripture I cited,
so I am not dogmatic on this point. I just think it is logical and that it views the love of God as even more amazing!
 

studier

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No, but I don't think there is any scripture saying God hates Satan either.
However, we do see scripture saying that God created the world, including Satan, and saw that it was good. (GN 1)
And we do see scripture saying that we should love our enemies and be perfect, like God. (MT 5)
So, what more scripture foundation do we need? Is there any bad reason to believe God loves Satan while hating his sin?
Is there any scripture foundation for not believing God loves everyone, including Satan?

I understand your reluctance, because I was not taught this by anyone other than Jesus by applying the scripture I cited,
so I am not dogmatic on this point. I just think it is logical and that it views the love of God as even more amazing!

Interesting thoughts. God has certainly allowed His adversary to roam about in His creation for quite some time.
 

Eli1

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Whie the idea of God having mercy of Satan is an idea that floats around in our Church and is seen as a way of maturity for a Christian, the way you express yourself is hilarious.
Here especially :
No, but I don't think there is any scripture saying God hates Satan either.
So when an idea it's not in the Bible and you like it, it's okay, but when it's an idea that you don't like and it is said by others to you then you ask "Where does it say this in the Bible?"
You're hilarious sailor ! :ROFL:
 

GWH

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Would "the use of figurative language in Scripture" be an interesting topic to study systematically?
The first figure of speech I find in Matthew is in 3:7, where John the Baptist calls the Pharisees and Sadducees a "brood of vipers".

What is the meaning of this metaphor?

A second metaphor is found in v.8, which says to produce "fruit" in keeping with repentance.

What does this mean?

Do y'all spot the third figure of speech?
 

HealthAndHappiness

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It's a big study that must include things from the Hebrew mindset and take into account how Paul for example was chosen to work on integrating 2 vastly different cultures while also transitioning into the new Spiritual era.

Paul Ruben, for example, integrating the culture of the upper and middle classes in regards to personal property. 😉

Hermaneutics 101


😄
 

maxwel

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Would "the use of figurative language in Scripture" be an interesting topic to study systematically?
I think there's a lot we can say about figurative language n scripture,
but I'm less certain there's much to say about it within a study of hermeneutics.
I guess we can say figurative language EXISTS, and it exists in SEVERAL DIFFERENT FORMS, and we can discuss HOW TO RECOGNIZE IT.

Beyond those few issues I think we're moving beyond principles of interpretation, and moving into the practice of interpretation... so not hermeneutics.


.