Where Americas Founders Deists or Christians or Something Else?

[ThereRoseaLamb]

"Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention."

"The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith."

Ok, so with that statement, let's begin from there. Let's settle the question of whether America has a Christian foundation or not.

 

[Magenta]

3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin

Thomas Jefferson was a "Christian" Deist, which is a liberal religious belief that emphasizes reason over revelation.
He rejected many traditional Christian doctrines, including the resurrection of Jesus and the virgin birth.

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly referred to as the Jefferson Bible, was completed in 1820 by cutting and pasting, with a razor and glue, numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine. <= wiki

 

[lrs68]

America founded upon Christian values begins with the Mayflower and the arrival of the first European settlers coming to live the rest of their lives in the new territory.

But the first elected officials in America, some 100 years later, were known more for their connections to the Freemason's. And these men weren't as Godly as some claim.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Ok, so with that statement, let's begin from there. Let's settle the question of whether America has a Christian foundation or not.

Define Christian foundation

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

America founded upon Christian values begins with the Mayflower and the arrival of the first European settlers coming to live the rest of their lives in the new territory.

But the first elected officials in America, some 100 years later, were known more for their connections to the Freemason's. And these men weren't as Godly as some claim.

Thank you, yes, I know things changed later on but let's stick to the founding for now.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Define Christian foundation

Let me get back to you with a better definition than I could give. I want to do this as historically truthful as I can get.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It really doesn't matter; whatever the religious beliefs of the founders was is irrelevant. What matters is the Constitution, which clearly defines what the federal government's role is in religion; which is no role. People are free to practice whatever religion they choose, or no religion.

I never cease to be amazed at those on the right who claim to be constitutionalists, but then want to turn around and ignore the Constitution whenever it says something they don't like.

 

[Cameron143]

It's interesting that you employ the phrase...free to practice...religion...for this is correct. The constitution was written to limit government, and not the governed. So while there is to be no state sponsored religion, religious practice is not precluded within government. Hence, beginning a session of government with prayer is within the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. It falls under the free exercise of religion.
Many things fall under this umbrella that some have abrogated unconstitutionally.

 

[homwardbound]

Thank you, yes, I know things changed later on but let's stick to the founding for now.

Under freedom for the people that was not happening g in Europe. They came here fro the freedom offered, yet killed the Indians, no flesh to this day will ever please God Father but Son Jesus that did it for us to be new in. his risen Life to us
Thanks

 

[daisyseesthesun]

It really doesn't matter; whatever the religious beliefs of the founders was is irrelevant. What matters is the Constitution, which clearly defines what the federal government's role is in religion; which is no role. People are free to practice whatever religion they choose, or no religion.

I never cease to be amazed at those on the right who claim to be constitutionalists, but then want to turn around and ignore the Constitution whenever it says something they don't like.

This isn't irrelevant it's a good discussion because atheist often bring this up on Twitter. Saying things like our founding fathers weren't Christian and we aren't built on Christian ideals.

 

[lrs68]

It really doesn't matter; whatever the religious beliefs of the founders was is irrelevant. What matters is the Constitution, which clearly defines what the federal government's role is in religion; which is no role. People are free to practice whatever religion they choose, or no religion.

I never cease to be amazed at those on the right who claim to be constitutionalists, but then want to turn around and ignore the Constitution whenever it says something they don't like.

Well said

This is how our Founding Fathers believed:

Treaty of Tripoli
Article 11 of the treaty stated: “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well said

This is how our Founding Fathers believed:

Treaty of Tripoli
Article 11 of the treaty stated: “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...

That's pretty wild, I'd never heard of that treaty.

 

[Hakawaka]

Some of them were deists yeah. Maybe some of them were born again believers.

There is not a single Christian nation on the planet. Its not an old testament economy where God has a particular nation with its appointed king.

We are in the kingdom of God, and usually Christians arent in the business of building worldly kingdoms

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The founding fathers wisely kept the fed gov't from meddling in religious affairs, but there's no question that Christians were prevalent in the government back then. For example, Charles Thompson, the secretary to the Continental Congress, made the first English translation of the Greek Septuagint. Quite a feat.

 

[sawdust]

"Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention."

"The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith."

Ok, so with that statement, let's begin from there. Let's settle the question of whether America has a Christian foundation or not.

If it wasn't, America would have no claim to being the greatest nation on Earth or if it makes the claim, and it's true, then it would have to admit there is something greater than truth.

 

[Edify]

I know that Washington was a Freemason, but was it confirmed that he was given last rites by a Jesuit priest?

 

[blueluna5]

Well part of the reason they literally went to war was to escape England and create their own country bc of religion. So yes it was rather important to them.

Taxes were another reason which.....probably due for another one of those. 😆

England is pretty liberal, but compare them to communism to get a full view of Christianity. Communism is atheist and the views of them hold as such.

So yes creating the constitution and the bill of rights, being so concerned for people's freedom is definitely Christian based.

You will not see that with any atheist group, including free globalists. Even if they say they're Christian or catholic.

 

[maxwel]

Let's settle the question of whether America has a Christian foundation or not.

Back to Definitions:

I don't think we can answer this question in any way that will resolve all of our arguments with others.
Why?

Because people have different definitions of the phrase "Christian foundation."

Method:
A. You must answer each person according to his specific preconception.
B. When he says the U.S. is not this or that, you need to respond by saying, "What do you mean by that?"
C. Then you keep asking that question until you're very clear on what HE means.
D. THEN you can answer the original claim, and give a rebuttal.

Conclusion:
1. All we can talk about here is how the founders thought based on what they did and said... the historical data.
2. Answering someone's question goes way beyond that... we need to know what their question actually means to THEM.

.

 

[GaryA]

Back to Definitions:

I don't think we can answer this question in any way that will resolve all of our arguments with others.
Why?

Because people have different definitions of the phrase "Christian foundation."

Method:
A. You must answer each person according to his specific preconception.
B. When he says the U.S. is not this or that, you need to respond by saying, "What do you mean by that?"
C. Then you keep asking that question until you're very clear on what HE means.
D. THEN you can answer the original claim, and give a rebuttal.

Conclusion:
1. All we can talk about here is how the founders thought based on what they did and said... the historical data.
2. Answering someone's question goes way beyond that... we need to know what their question actually means to THEM.

.

There are times when discussing an opposing point-of-view of someone from their perspective may actually be useful in helping them to see the truth; however, it is never a good idea to kowtow to political correctness when determining a proper definition for the sake of the context of discussion - there can be only one definition - and, everyone involved needs to know it and understand it. Otherwise, you have nothing but chaos.

So - when trying to determine a definition - you must determine the real actual contextual definition - not the many different definitions based on the many different perspectives of people - the real actual contextual definition must be properly understood in the mind of every person.

There is only one true definition for 'Christian foundation' in the context of the topic of this thread. And, it is necessarily defined as it was when the U.S. was 'founded'. This is the proper-and-correct definition.

I believe the pertinent questions are:

~ If something has a 'Christian foundation', does that [simply] mean that it was founded based on Christian principles?

Or, is there some other meaning we need to consider?

~ Was the U.S. government founded on Christianity?

~ Was the U.S. society founded on Christianity?

The government and society ("We The People") were two different things. The government was "created" by the society for the sake of insuring a free society that could exercise its Christian beliefs.

That does not necessarily mean that the government itself had a 'Christian foundation'. However, I believe that historical writings are replete with evidence that the society most certainly had a 'Christian foundation'.

And - again - the government was "created" by the society to serve the society and preserve the 'Christian foundation' of the society.

This is important to remember when discussing the historical beginnings of the U.S.A.

The only people we need to ask about what 'Christian foundation' means are the people who defined it and wrote about it back-in-the-day...

To get a proper-and-correct definition, we have to look to history.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Back to Definitions:

I don't think we can answer this question in any way that will resolve all of our arguments with others.
Why?

Because people have different definitions of the phrase "Christian foundation."

Method:
A. You must answer each person according to his specific preconception.
B. When he says the U.S. is not this or that, you need to respond by saying, "What do you mean by that?"
C. Then you keep asking that question until you're very clear on what HE means.
D. THEN you can answer the original claim, and give a rebuttal.

Conclusion:
1. All we can talk about here is how the founders thought based on what they did and said... the historical data.
2. Answering someone's question goes way beyond that... we need to know what their question actually means to THEM.

.

Shot down, middle of thread. Ok, so now what do we talk about? Suggestions??