Salvation, How do I find it?

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Oct 15, 2024
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#61
What, I am seeing
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:27
he it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John then sees Jesus coming, and states, Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world. (that is now done in Father's sight for us to be new in the rise Son)
Then when Jesus wants John to water baptize him. John says he Needs to be Baptized by Jesus?
Jesus says to baptize him for now, he needed to do all that is right first. Jesus 's purpose was to fulfill the Law of Moses, that is now, today done by Son. thank you

John said "I" need Baptized by you to Jesus, was that water Baptism? Actually Spirit baptism
And there is only one Baptism so which Baptism is the true baptism, water or Spirit of God Baptism?

John's job was, is over once he Baptized Jesus and announced the Messiah has arrived to save us

thanks for your sharing post of water Baptism
Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
EPHESIANS 6:12 NOW BEFORE THEY ACCOMPLISH THEIR PLANS Take our stand!!!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,638
31,469
113
#62
“What must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:30-31).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#63
I got water baptized, that did me no good but to be a member of a denomination. I got put under Law and got worse at sin that I had already done wrong without Law to do.
Then I had to do it and repent weekly at Church.
I see now the futility in that
Therefore by God now I am Spirit baptized in God in God's Spirit and Truth of risen Son and can care less if others accept me or not any longer, God and me are good, my conscience clear
I do not need to have any fanciful words or any need to convince anyone. God loves us all y'all
Might want to re-read 2 Cor 10-11
It is Spirit Baptism that saves
Peter said what Peter said in Acts, now read what Peter said later on in his Epistle

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
seeing the Gentile getting saved through Peter's preaching to them, being it was God speaking through Peter were saved instantly, no water Baptism. Even though Peter got them tom get water Baptized after being saved by God in belief to God's Son as risen for them. Would God take it away from them if they decided not to get water Baptized?
thank you as each decide fro them, between God and them thank you
“I got water baptized, that did me no good but to be a member of a denomination”

maybe because you hadn’t heard what it meant for you or didn’t believe it ?

You believe this right ?

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when jesus died it was for the remission of sins of the people who believe in him.

this is what he said to the apostles

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is what Peter said after they all received the Holy Ghost and he began speaking by the spirit at pentocost

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you just get baptized and think it doesn’t mean anything it’s not really going to mean anything to you by faith . But if you begin to learn “ baptism in Jesus name is for remission of sins “ and then you begin to wonder more about how that works or what baptism means in more detail

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Belief in his death and resurrection is the power of baptism for remission of sins in his name also .

when a child is born his mothers water breaks and he emerges from the womb. A new born child. Innocent and beloved , precious.

“And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:10-11‬ ‭

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need our sins remitted , Jesus does for remission of our sins , when we get baptized it’s for “ remission of sins in his name , through his death , burial and resurrection .

do you know about communion ? It also is based on belief in Jesus body given up in sacrifice for our sins and his blood shed for our atonement. The reason we take communion

But suppose no one has heard any of this section of Paul’s teaching about it , in tbat case the communion doesn’t mean anything it’s not being done by faith we’re just eating bread and sipping wine if we do t know what it means or how it impacts us

The way we know is by learning things like this it’s just the apostle Paul teaching something from the gospel . And how it impacts the church.

“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:23-30‬ ‭

note that is a bit of a scary warning to drink damnation on one’s self by taking his body and blood unworthily and without discerning his body that was given for our sins. Bit also note this was tangibly impacting these folks health both physical and spiritual.

“For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

abut anyone who reads just simply what Paul wrote there in one of his letters can understand “ok communion is an important matter that we do because of our belief that Jesus died for our sins. But it is something we’re taught to do and something that has real impact upon our lives and faith in him. Just as baptism for remission of sins in his name is something Christian’s are taught to partake of and there’s more blessing also than only remission of sins in his death but new life and identity in his resurrection raised up in his name

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maybe you thought “ baptism doesn’t have any meaning “ and that’s why it had no effect for you it’s an action that’s produced by faith . When you hear about it and then act upon it Gods promise becomes effectual and powerful
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,732
13,667
113
59
#64
“What must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:30-31).
Amen! Plain and simple. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and becoming saved. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) So, repentance is not a work for salvation that comes after we believe and are saved, as some teach. The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as some teach. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3) Water baptism "follows" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and becoming saved. (Acts 10:43-47; 16:33-34)
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
113
#65
How? By reading the NT scriptures pertaining to the subject and by linking the piece meal requirements together, and when you do, you get the following requirements
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief
3. Repentance
4. Baptism, immersion in water, for the remission of sins
I went through all the above and more of
finally, one Day God showed me from within me, God and Son did it all for me to stand in this truth in love and mercy not only for me yet for us all
Romans 3:25
whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 John 2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Ask, believe, trust and see new, amazing gift this is from God to all that sincerely believe God over everything else , this I finally see, not ever giving up, yes even while I still sinned, not wanting to as said in Romans 7 to me. God reveals this Epistle to each of those that will not quit, thank you
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
113
#66
ServantofMostHigh
Authorized (King James) Version
Eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I daily approach and am in the throne of grace, the only place safe, thanks to God Father by risen Son. Wow, woe is me, as in Isaiah 6:1-7
Ps. 100:4. 103:12 fulfilled for us all by Son in the resurrection given him from Father for us to see it, and be new in it too, thank you, Loving all: no more a few as did in first birth nature, before being made new by Father and Son as Won, thanks
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
113
#67
“I got water baptized, that did me no good but to be a member of a denomination”

maybe because you hadn’t heard what it meant for you or didn’t believe it ?

You believe this right ?

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when jesus died it was for the remission of sins of the people who believe in him.

this is what he said to the apostles

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is what Peter said after they all received the Holy Ghost and he began speaking by the spirit at pentocost

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you just get baptized and think it doesn’t mean anything it’s not really going to mean anything to you by faith . But if you begin to learn “ baptism in Jesus name is for remission of sins “ and then you begin to wonder more about how that works or what baptism means in more detail

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Belief in his death and resurrection is the power of baptism for remission of sins in his name also .

when a child is born his mothers water breaks and he emerges from the womb. A new born child. Innocent and beloved , precious.

“And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:10-11‬ ‭

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need our sins remitted , Jesus does for remission of our sins , when we get baptized it’s for “ remission of sins in his name , through his death , burial and resurrection .

do you know about communion ? It also is based on belief in Jesus body given up in sacrifice for our sins and his blood shed for our atonement. The reason we take communion

But suppose no one has heard any of this section of Paul’s teaching about it , in tbat case the communion doesn’t mean anything it’s not being done by faith we’re just eating bread and sipping wine if we do t know what it means or how it impacts us

The way we know is by learning things like this it’s just the apostle Paul teaching something from the gospel . And how it impacts the church.

“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:23-30‬ ‭

note that is a bit of a scary warning to drink damnation on one’s self by taking his body and blood unworthily and without discerning his body that was given for our sins. Bit also note this was tangibly impacting these folks health both physical and spiritual.

“For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

abut anyone who reads just simply what Paul wrote there in one of his letters can understand “ok communion is an important matter that we do because of our belief that Jesus died for our sins. But it is something we’re taught to do and something that has real impact upon our lives and faith in him. Just as baptism for remission of sins in his name is something Christian’s are taught to partake of and there’s more blessing also than only remission of sins in his death but new life and identity in his resurrection raised up in his name

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maybe you thought “ baptism doesn’t have any meaning “ and that’s why it had no effect for you it’s an action that’s produced by faith . When you hear about it and then act upon it Gods promise becomes effectual and powerful
I get the feeling, you are not pleased at my writings of the risen Son where true Spirit Baptism is at through Father and Son as a gift.
Water Baptism is done, Jesus got announced as the Messiah, which was the Job of John the Baptist (A Levite Priest), who did not continue water Baptism as you have said they did as states in Acts. He got be-headed by the King, in flesh and blood, by the promise he made to the woman over a sex dance that he got risen up over in his flesh body. Then was told to fulfill that promise by the Mother that got him pleased, this be why God, the Son said make no promise, a simple yes or no, is to be well enough. To make a promise comes from evil. see it now in religion, putting people under Law promise to have to be water Baptized, and many other things not well for anyone's soul, putting people in stress having no rest when truth is: it is not water Baptism that saves, it is God's Spirit Baptism, thanks and see truth please, God just loves us all y'all, no one has to do anything, once one sees it is done by God for them in risen Son to them. These just love as God loves everyone, God loves and that goes on forever, for me at least.
Jesus did not water Baptize anyone
Paul even said he was glad he did not water baptize, even though he did do that to a few. He, stated he did not come to water Baptize. That be in Corinthians to the Corinthians, speaking to them about pride entering in them over their doings and not doings, calls that Dung
Phil 3 talks of the self works, and if so, anyone wants to go there, go ahead see the challenge and the give up being under Law to simply uphold law and do as lead from God not me or you or any other person. Thank you Father only
So, sorry you do not seem to see truth in Father Spirit Baptism that saves us the people. I do not apply work for anyone to do to be saved by God, it is not of Flesh work, no flesh other than Son's ever pleased God. It is of God Father's done work of Son to rest in and stop doing any self-work, and be in guilt or pride anymore which religion teaches being under Law still, that Christ, if where here in flesh, would not get involved in any world Church claiming to be of God (Hebrews 8) being under Law
We do work, those born new, yet not of the self, at least not me anymore. Born again is dead to the first birth of the first self under Law
So thank you for reminding me of that truth
Blessed, thank you Father Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26 all fulfilled in the risen Son as proof to me and I can only speak for me in this love given me to tell all to turn to God willingly and see new in truth for you too, Love from God to us all y'all
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#68
I get the feeling, you are not pleased at my writings of the risen Son where true Spirit Baptism is at through Father and Son as a gift.
Water Baptism is done, Jesus got announced as the Messiah, which was the Job of John the Baptist (A Levite Priest), who did not continue water Baptism as you have said they did as states in Acts. He got be-headed by the King, in flesh and blood, by the promise he made to the woman over a sex dance that he got risen up over in his flesh body. Then was told to fulfill that promise by the Mother that got him pleased, this be why God, the Son said make no promise, a simple yes or no, is to be well enough. To make a promise comes from evil. see it now in religion, putting people under Law promise to have to be water Baptized, and many other things not well for anyone's soul, putting people in stress having no rest when truth is: it is not water Baptism that saves, it is God's Spirit Baptism, thanks and see truth please, God just loves us all y'all, no one has to do anything, once one sees it is done by God for them in risen Son to them. These just love as God loves everyone, God loves and that goes on forever, for me at least.
Jesus did not water Baptize anyone
Paul even said he was glad he did not water baptize, even though he did do that to a few. He, stated he did not come to water Baptize. That be in Corinthians to the Corinthians, speaking to them about pride entering in them over their doings and not doings, calls that Dung
Phil 3 talks of the self works, and if so, anyone wants to go there, go ahead see the challenge and the give up being under Law to simply uphold law and do as lead from God not me or you or any other person. Thank you Father only
So, sorry you do not seem to see truth in Father Spirit Baptism that saves us the people. I do not apply work for anyone to do to be saved by God, it is not of Flesh work, no flesh other than Son's ever pleased God. It is of God Father's done work of Son to rest in and stop doing any self-work, and be in guilt or pride anymore which religion teaches being under Law still, that Christ, if where here in flesh, would not get involved in any world Church claiming to be of God (Hebrews 8) being under Law
We do work, those born new, yet not of the self, at least not me anymore. Born again is dead to the first birth of the first self under Law
So thank you for reminding me of that truth
Blessed, thank you Father Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26 all fulfilled in the risen Son as proof to me and I can only speak for me in this love given me to tell all to turn to God willingly and see new in truth for you too, Love from God to us all y'all
It doesn’t displease me friend but you keep responding to my posts in a Bible discussion forum . So a lot of times I reply to you with stuff from the Bible . I’m assuming your trying to start a conversation or want me to reply when you reply to something I’ve shared

but no m not displeased by what you write here alot of it I don’t read sometimes I read things and like what you had to say other times I find that what your saying is the opposite of what the Bible says . So I try to reply to you with some of that stuff

whether I’m pleased or not isnt determined by what someone writes in a Bible forum you have every right to be here in this public forum writing what you do friend , but I do often not u derstsnd what your saying , and other times I dont agree with it . Doesn’t mean I dislike you or think you need to stop writing just means if we discuss sometimes we’ll have different views
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
113
#69
It doesn’t displease me friend but you keep responding to my posts in a Bible discussion forum . So a lot of times I reply to you with stuff from the Bible . I’m assuming your trying to start a conversation or want me to reply when you reply to something I’ve shared

but no m not displeased by what you write here alot of it I don’t read sometimes I read things and like what you had to say other times I find that what your saying is the opposite of what the Bible says . So I try to reply to you with some of that stuff

whether I’m pleased or not isnt determined by what someone writes in a Bible forum you have every right to be here in this public forum writing what you do friend , but I do often not u derstsnd what your saying , and other times I dont agree with it . Doesn’t mean I dislike you or think you need to stop writing just means if we discuss sometimes we’ll have different views
You. Might want to read the entire posts or replies,before making any judgments. Thanks love to you. We are all only growing up daily in trust to God each in a different depth each growing up. Not,, that I know anything, just seeing trusting, learning, sharing and standing in the risen Son given me to stand in the same love and mercy given to everyone from God Father in son as risen, where the new life of love to all takes over, at least for me
thanks
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,732
13,667
113
59
#70
I know you believe in faith, but if you believe what God says in His Will about repentance, confession, and baptism then you can’t possibly believe that faith alone saves anyone. And, contrary, if you believe that faith alone, or faith only saves a person, then you don’t believe what God says in his Will about repentance, confession, and baptism. You then become an “unbeliever” in God’s word; your faith us like the demons in James 2, and God says you will not enter the kingdom of heaven Matthew 7:21..
Genuine believers are not saying that we are saved by "faith alone" in the "sense" that we never repented or that the word of faith is in our heart but not in our mouth or that God's grace or the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (which is the object of our faith) is not involved in salvation or that our faith is dead and remains alone/barren of works.

Folks who teach salvation by works typically misrepresent what genuine believers mean by faith alone/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works/faith only. (James 2:14-24)

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

These many people in Matthew 7:21 were not genuine believers. They were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. (Matthew 7:22) Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved. (Matthew 7:23)
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
813
335
63
#71
“What must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:30-31).


Read the next verse. Verse 32, then he spoke the word of the Lord to him—fulfilling Romans 10:17- “Faith comes by hearing the word of God”. The jailer would not have known what to believe or who Jesus was otherwise. He was a Roman, probably pagan.

Read the next verse,33, (after hearing the word of the Lord) IMMEDIATELY, he and all his house were BAPTIZED! Wonder how he knew to be baptized?? Same thing happened in Acts 8 after Phillip oreached Jesus to the eunuch, he immediately asked to be baptized. I guess baptism is part of “preaching Jesus” and “the word of the Lord.” How else would they have known about it?

Read the next verse, 34. “…and he REJOICED, HAVING BELIEVED IN GOD WITH ALL OF HIS HOUSE. This is what it means to BELIEVE. It means to obey all that God says.

So what did the jailer do to be saved? The Holy Spirit says He believed and was baptized. Earlier in this chapter a woman named Lydia also was taught by Paul and how was she saved? Verse 14 just says she “heeded the things spoken by z Paul—it doesn’t even say she believed; But it does say she was BAPTIZED.

How was Lydia saved? She believed and was baptized,
How was the jailer saved? He believed and was baptized.
How did Jesus say we are saved? Believe and be baptized. Mark 16:16.

How much more does God need to say?
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
813
335
63
#72
From Phillip.

Water baptism is not a part of the gospel message that saves. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

The eunuch said that he believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God and what was the result of his belief? John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. What happened to baptism? Romans 10:10 is not about obeying it as a work for salvation. Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation.

That deaf mute person was saved the moment he believed. (John 3:15,16,18; 20:31)

Not at all because the word of faith was still in his mouth (even though he was mute) and in his heart (Romans 10:8) and confession with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:9,10)

Yet Romans 10:9 says confess with your mouth. So, it could not be a work for salvation or else a deaf mute person would remain lost for failing to verbally confess with their mouth. Again, confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. That is why we will be saved if we confess.

I don't leave confession out as a confirmation of faith. At the moment I was saved when I believed the gospel, the first words out of my mouth were words of praise to Jesus as Lord with my hands raised in the air and I was thanking Him for saving me. Praise God!

Straw man argument.[/
(Gal 1:8-9) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
According to what Paul stated twice in Galatians, we must not add to or take away from what is written in God's word. So we must examine the scriptures to find all that is written about salvation. Here is I found that leads to our salvation as I find it in scripture.

(Jn 3:16) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

(Lk 13:3) "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

(Rom 10:8-9) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

(Jn 3:5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So according to what Jesus told Nicodemus, he needed to be born again. How could that happen?

(Rom 6:1-11) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For [the death] that He died, He died to sin once for all; but [the life] that He lives, He lives to God.
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus and Paul was blinded. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and he would be told what he was to become. Do you think Paul believed in Jesus at the point, but was he saved? Ananias told Paul this after Jesus had spoken to him on the road to Damascus.

(Acts 22:16) 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

(Jas 2:19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Believing in Jesus Christ is essential, but as we see with the demons, just believing is not enough. We must take all the verses on a topic and add them up to make sure we have the whole picture in order to find out how we find salvation.

We hear the word, we then believe in Jesus Christ, we repent of our sins and our from our past ways, we confess that Jesus is the Son of God before men, and the we are baptized, we are immersed, we are buried with Him in the watery grave of baptism so that we die to our sins, which that burial is a likeness of His death, then as He was resurrected, we rise up out of that watery grave to walk in newness of life., just as Jesus told Nicodemus, we are now born again.
Amen!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,732
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#73
(Gal 1:8-9) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. According to what Paul stated twice in Galatians, we must not add to or take away from what is written in God's word. So we must examine the scriptures to find all that is written about salvation. Here is I found that leads to our salvation as I find it in scripture.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The apostle Paul clearly explains why people do not believe the gospel in (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). The god of this world has blinded the minds of them who DO NOT BELIEVE. Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians/make believers who do not believe the gospel and instead trust in a works-based false gospel. :(

(Jn 3:16)
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Amen! Notice believes "apart from additions or modifications."

(Lk 13:3)
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Amen! Unless we repent (change our mind) we will not believe in Him and be saved. Repentance actually "precedes" believing in Him.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

(Rom 10:8-9)
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I have heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we verbally confess Christ publicly to a group of people, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth. When a person believes unto righteousness, they are not still lost. In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness = SAVED.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord at conversion and beyond. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. The 4-step plan of salvation according to the church of Christ is: 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Be baptized then only after all 4 steps are complete one is finally saved. Now according to that erroneous plan, one could not believe unto righteousness/confess unto salvation because the person still needs to be baptized "afterwards" in order to be saved. Something for you to think about.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,732
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#74
Careym58 said: (Jn 3:5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So according to what Jesus told Nicodemus, he needed to be born again. How could that happen?
In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

(Rom 6:1-11)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him], that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For [the death] that He died, He died to sin once for all; but [the life] that He lives, He lives to God.
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In regard to Romans 6, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

So, the old man of sin being crucified with Him, and the new man being raised to walk in newness of life is signified but not procured in water baptism. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Being "baptized into Christ" does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ, as water-salvationists teach. That is only accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what sense would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

Jesus spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus and Paul was blinded. Jesus told him to go to Damascus and he would be told what he was to become. Do you think Paul believed in Jesus at the point, but was he saved? Ananias told Paul this after Jesus had spoken to him on the road to Damascus.

(Acts 22:16)]'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
In regard to Acts 22:16, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

I find it interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,732
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#75
Careym58 said: (Jas 2:19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Big difference! Their trust and reliance are in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Believing in Jesus Christ is essential, but as we see with the demons, just believing is not enough.
Not all belief is the same. There is a "mental assent" belief that falls short of saving belief in Jesus (as with the demons and "nominal" Christians/make believers) and there is belief from the heart that believes in/has faith in/trusts in/reliance in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43; 16:31) trusts in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of one's salvation, resulting in salvation. (Romans 1:16)

We must take all the verses on a topic and add them up to make sure we have the whole picture in order to find out how we find salvation.
It's not about cherry picking Scripture and "patching together" another gospel/different gospel that culminates in salvation by works. We must properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

We hear the word, we then believe in Jesus Christ, we repent of our sins and our from our past ways, we confess that Jesus is the Son of God before men, and the we are baptized, we are immersed, we are buried with Him in the watery grave of baptism so that we die to our sins, which that burial is a likeness of His death, then as He was resurrected, we rise up out of that watery grave to walk in newness of life., just as Jesus told Nicodemus, we are now born again.
That is the plan of salvation according to the church of Christ (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) but is not the plan of salvation according to Scripture.

We must first hear the word (Romans 10:17) before we can believe in Jesus Christ/place our faith in Jesus for salvation and become saved. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Those who believe in Christ/have placed their faith in Christ for salvation and are saved have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe in Christ/place faith in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 5:7-9; 20:21) When only repentance is mentioned in connection with salvation, belief/faith is implied or assumed. When only belief/faith is mentioned in connection with salvation, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. Two sides to the same coin.

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8-10) and confession is a confirmation of faith which has divine influence by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) which is why we will be saved if we confess and is not a work for salvation after faith. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Being buried with Him in the likeness of His death and resurrection, having died to our sins and rising to walk in newness of life is signified but is not procured in water baptism. A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. The reality is found in Spirit baptism when we believe the gospel and are placed into the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13) Water baptism "follows" salvation through believing in Him and receiving remission of sins. (Acts 10:43-47)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,638
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#76
a woman named Lydia also was taught by Paul and how was she saved? Verse 14 just says she “heeded the things spoken by z Paul—it doesn’t even say she believed; But it does say she was BAPTIZED.

How was Lydia saved? She believed and was baptized,
Acts 16:14b The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

You really oughtn't misrepresent Scripture.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
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#77
Read the next verse. Verse 32, then he spoke the word of the Lord to him—fulfilling Romans 10:17- “Faith comes by hearing the word of God”. The jailer would not have known what to believe or who Jesus was otherwise. He was a Roman, probably pagan.

Read the next verse,33, (after hearing the word of the Lord) IMMEDIATELY, he and all his house were BAPTIZED! Wonder how he knew to be baptized?? Same thing happened in Acts 8 after Phillip oreached Jesus to the eunuch, he immediately asked to be baptized. I guess baptism is part of “preaching Jesus” and “the word of the Lord.” How else would they have known about it?

Read the next verse, 34. “…and he REJOICED, HAVING BELIEVED IN GOD WITH ALL OF HIS HOUSE. This is what it means to BELIEVE. It means to obey all that God says.

So what did the jailer do to be saved? The Holy Spirit says He believed and was baptized. Earlier in this chapter a woman named Lydia also was taught by Paul and how was she saved? Verse 14 just says she “heeded the things spoken by z Paul—it doesn’t even say she believed; But it does say she was BAPTIZED.

How was Lydia saved? She believed and was baptized,
How was the jailer saved? He believed and was baptized.
How did Jesus say we are saved? Believe and be baptized. Mark 16:16.

How much more does God need to say?
How much more does God need to say?[/QUOTE]

Want to search the scriptures, okay

Acts 1:5

For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 10:47

Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Acts 11:16

Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

1 Corinthians 12:13

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Ephesians 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Acts 19:4

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”



According to most Christian denominations, "spirit baptism" (being filled with the Holy Spirit) is considered the act that saves a person, while water baptism is a symbolic outward expression of that inner transformation, meaning that "spirit baptism" is the one that saves; water baptism alone does not grant salvation.



Water baptism is a visual representation of the invisible Spirit baptism. All those who are saved have experienced Spirit baptism, but if one seeks to be a disciple, he will also obey Christ and publicly be baptized in water. Water baptism, like all the acts and works of a disciple, has no power to save from Hell.



Does a person have to be water baptized to be saved?

There is no example in Scripture of a believer being sprinkled, or of having water poured on them to signify they had believed and received Christ.
In conclusion, water baptism is not essential for salvation. It is by God's grace alone through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from works.



What is the correct way to baptize according to the Bible?

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Romans 6:3–5). Baptism by immersion by a person having the proper authority is the only acceptable way of being baptized.

who is the only one with the proper authority?

Jesus the risen, thank you, Father

Believe, is risen for you personally, then Jesus in Father as risen for you will teach you, no one else will need to teach you anything, once you see the personal relationship given you by Father for you through Son as risen to you

Thank you
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,206
693
113
#78
In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

In regard to Romans 6, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

So, the old man of sin being crucified with Him, and the new man being raised to walk in newness of life is signified but not procured in water baptism. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Being "baptized into Christ" does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ, as water-salvationists teach. That is only accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what sense would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

In regard to Acts 22:16, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

I find it interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
God's Law of Love is now for us all, to be given, if not yet, this is imputed, as I see is done for us all to be new in the Living God as leader. Thanks

In totality, Love, God's love of 1 Cor 13:4-7, 13 is the entire Law and is wholesome for us that believe God and seek God as our personal teacher, me at least, given free in the risen Son Jesus, from Father, Daddy, PaPa
Luke 12:12
for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I, abide willingly, not having to, having to, given free choice, I chose to abide. So I do again willingly thank you
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#79
In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

In regard to Romans 6, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

So, the old man of sin being crucified with Him, and the new man being raised to walk in newness of life is signified but not procured in water baptism. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Being "baptized into Christ" does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ, as water-salvationists teach. That is only accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what sense would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

In regard to Acts 22:16, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized. (Acts 9:18) Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

I find it interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.
Re "No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.": Amen, a very good hermeneutical practice to follow.

A cause of confusion and thus all of this fun chat is that the Bible does not discuss topics systematically, stating everything relevant in one passage. Thus, there is a need to do what you said, which may be called connecting dots and is what I refer to as spiritually sewing patches of GW together.

I have shared the result of my sewing several times, but since the chat buries what went before, I think it should be okay to post it again at this point:


The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically.