The conversion of the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

[studier]

I did not realize that I was disagreeing with Thayer's.

I thought you might have missed it as the link you provided did not seem to expand to view the whole of Thayer's.

Not according to Scripture.

Agree.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means to complete like love in 1 John 4:18, in regard to maturity. It does not mean that Abraham's faith remained incomplete to save him in Genesis 15:6 (when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness) until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. It also does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar many years later in Genesis 22 either.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

I like what you said about maturity in your 2nd paragraph above. It matches the word in the verse typically used to speak of maturity.

I retain a few concerns about the view that initial faith in all cases is sufficient to save since Authentic Faith grows and does works, and salvation is a bigger topic than initial justification.

I also think we're pushing the language a bit to have to make justified mean "show" (or such) in James2:21, 24. I do see and know your points re: God being justified, etc. But for one among a few things, I also see Abraham being tested in the sacrificing of his son (Heb11:17) and testing not just proving/showing righteousness - testing can also result in failure - but in a sense to pass a test or tests can also be seen to result in vindication/declaration of righteousness/justification in the test. IOW, to be proven is not that much different than to be deemed righteous.

Also, the wording in 2:18 is active - the person actively shows/gives evidence/proof from/as a result of his works and in 2:21, 24 as a result of his works (under testing) Abraham was deemed righteous (passive vs. actively showing/proving). We can look at this passive a bit in the way we translate it, but what or who justifying other than God (the one testing Abraham) is that meaningful?

Thanks for the responses.

 

[mailmandan]

A few translations:

27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NKJ)

27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life– the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him." 28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NET)

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 ESV)

Some questions for you and anyone else who'd like to answer:

1. Is Jesus talking with believers or unbelievers?
2. What did Jesus tell - actually command - them to do in 6:27?
3. Do you have a preference for one of the translations or another one - which one?
4. You say the Jews were taking a legalistic approach in 6:28. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly are they asking Jesus?
   2. Why are they asking Jesus the question?
5. You say Jesus' answer in 6:29 is a play on words. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly is Jesus telling them?

Thanks.

In John 6:27, Jesus tells them to not labor for the food that perishes but labor for the food that endures to eternal life, but the people misunderstood Jesus' statement and asked Him what they must do to work the works of God. Jesus replied to them that the work God is that they believe in Jesus in whom He has sent. Jesus previously told them in verse 26 - you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

 

[studier]

In John 6:27, Jesus tells them to not labor for the food that perishes but labor for the food that endures to eternal life, but the people misunderstood Jesus' statement and asked Him what they must do to work the works of God. Jesus replied to them that the work God is that they believe in Jesus in whom He has sent. Jesus previously told them in verse 26 - you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

Yes, that's basically what the verses say.

When Jesus says this: ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

Hasn't Jesus just commanded unbelievers to work for the food which remains for eternal life which Jesus will give them? It seems clear that's what He says.​

​

Isn't this what prompted them to ask Jesus in 6:28 what to do to work the works [of] God - or as the NET translated to work the works God requires?​

​

What does Jesus mean in 6:29 by: "this is the work [of] God, that you believe..."?

Your belief is God's work?​

​

Your work God requires is to believe?​

​

The translators are attempting to translate the [of] which can be translated many ways which is why the NET is translating as "requires".​

Even though it may seem harsh to our ears (which Jesus later deals with in John6) this is what He says:

​

Work for the food that remains into/for eternal life.​

What do we do to work the work of/for/required by/etc. God?​

The work of/for/required by/etc. God is that you believe.​

​

Most of us don't see Paul and Jesus in opposition. I don't rewrite Jesus or see Him speaking figuratively or doing word plays. I see them speaking about work differently.

You?

 

[HeIsHere]

James 2:24- “…not by faith only.(alone).

How many works are required?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

John 6:29 says the work of God is to believe into Christ. It requires work to deny the longings of our nature and believe into Christ, it doesn't happen without our willful participation and work.

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into (εἰς eis) the one that one sent. John 6:29​

​

G1519 εἰς eis (eis) prep.
1. into or to (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time.

 

[studier]

John 6:29 says the work of God is to believe into Christ. It requires work to deny the longings of our nature and believe into Christ, it doesn't happen without our willful participation and work.

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into (εἰς eis) the one that one sent. John 6:29​

​

G1519 εἰς eis (eis) prep.
1. into or to (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time.

View attachment 272757

As I recall John always uses this preposition to speak of believing into. Translators will typically say believe in but IMO John is specifying this transition that takes place from outside into inside (en). I have this spatial diagram of prepositions imprinted in my mind and almost always draw from it. Thanks for positing!

I like what you've said about the work it takes. I think we can see the practicality of what Jesus is dealing with in John6 when He commands unbelievers to work for the food that remains into (eis) eternal life.

Practically speaking we can just look at the context. These unbelievers are following Jesus around the earth, across the sea, etc. He's just telling them all their work/effort needs to be redirected to be given the spiritual food He's teaching that lasts into/for (goal) eternal life which He gives.

Later He speaks of hearing and learning from the Father.

I've always been put back by all this interpretive theological talk that there is no effort/work in even our ease of traveling then the effort/work of listening/hearing/learning Christ and in many doing the reasoning, heart searching, overcoming contrary thoughts, etc., involved in coming to believe Jesus is the Christ/King to who we all must submit. Some grow up in this teaching. Many do not. Imagine what it was like for these physically hungry unbelievers to be following Him around, thousands of them, and then having to have their mentality shifted to spiritual needs from physical needs.

Thanks for the post. The diagram is a great tool for studying many topics. There is a wealth of detail in these prepositions. And then there are also figurative meanings to get a handle on...

 

[studier]

How many works are required?

Or how much work is required? Depends.

 

[HeIsHere]

Or how much work is required? Depends.

Depends on what... where your quota stands?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I like what you've said about the work it takes. I think we can see the practicality of what Jesus is dealing with in John6 when He commands unbelievers to work for the food that remains into (eis) eternal life.

And just as the Israelites had to work to gather their daily manna in the wilderness, so we too have to labor daily to gather the hidden manna coming down out of heaven, ie, the true bread of life.

Let the one having an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the assemblies. I will be giving to the one conquering the hidden manna. And I will be giving to him a white pebble; and a new name written upon the pebble, which no one knows except the one receiving. Revelation 2:17​

​

 

[studier]

Depends on what... where your quota stands?

Surely you jest. It depends on what God desires and determines for everyone in coming to believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ/King. See post #103 and #106 particularly to what Jesus is commanding in John6:27.

Then there's the discussion of what God expects of all His Children whom He created in righteousness and holiness for good works.