The conversion of the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

1. Jesus is talking to unbelievers who had traipsed around the lake to get to Jesus in the hopes of getting more food for their bellies.
2. Jesus told them to change the focus of their efforts away from pursuing Him to get perishable food, and instead to pursue Him to get spiritual food Jesus was dispensing, God's word, that can produce aeonous life.
3. I don't like any of the translations. There are two koinE Greek words that may be translated "that": hoti and hina.
hoti is a relative pronoun that introduces a subject or object clause. e.g. It is the truth that I am a Christian. "I am a Christian is a clause that is the complement of "the truth."
hina, on the other hand, introduces an intentional or consequential clause, and means that, so that, in order that. e.g. I became a Christian that/so that/in order that (intention) I might live my life as God's friend." Or, I was so impressed by the gospel that (consequence) I became a Christian.

Now, the kionE Greek word used in v. 29 is not hoti, but hina. IMHO, the correct translation of the passage should be as follows.

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but [work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, in order that (hina) you might believe (pisteusEte: subjunctive aorist) in him whom he has sent."

4.

1. They are asking Jesus what they the works are that God requires of them.​

2. They are asking because Jesus seems to be changing the Mosaic Law away from what they have been traditionally taught the Moseaic Law was requiring of them.​

​

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing nd hearing by the word of God.

I think in John translators have played fast and loose with the translation of hoti and hina, not just here but elsewhere, in order to make the text seem to more clearly teach their preferred theology, rather than translating hoti and hina consistently to preserve the distinction in meaning between the two.

Hina can mean that or in order that. Whatever makes the most sense is what should be used. IMO that makes more sense in John 6:29 just like it does in 1 John 5:3.

For this is the love of God, that (ἵνα, hina) we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not heavy. 1 John 5:3​

​

Hina interpreted as in order that would make no sense in that verse because Jesus made clear that love of God is keeping his commandments.

He that has and keeps my commandments is the one who loves me; and the one that loves me shall be loved by my father, and I shall love him and will reveal myself to him. John 14:21​

​

 

[studier]

Now why would I jest.

Good works never have and never will save anyone.

I think @PaulThomson puts it into the correct perspective by looking at the primary audience.

#111

Do you get the impression I disagree with what @PaulThomson? I've inserted and highlighted in red text in his statement you quoted part of what I was originally alluding to. Many do not like that Jesus commands unbelievers in that verse to work to come to believe.

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort (literally "work") God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Hina can mean that or in order that. Whatever makes the most sense is what should be used. IMO that makes more sense in John 6:29 just like it does in 1 John 5:3.

For this is the love of God, that (ἵνα, hina) we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not heavy. 1 John 5:3​

​

Hina interpreted as in order that would make no sense in that verse because Jesus made clear that love of God is keeping his commandments.

He that has and keeps my commandments is the one who loves me; and the one that loves me shall be loved by my father, and I shall love him and will reveal myself to him. John 14:21​

​

I'm going through all the instances of hina (ἵνα, G2443) in John's writings and am discovering the whenever in order that makes sense, that also makes sense; so either can be used. But whenever that makes sense, in order that doesn't make sense, like in 1 John 5:3 above, and should be discarded.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You did not read that in my example of the thief on the cross.

there’s nothing to say he wasn’t baptized .
He could very easily had been baptized before he was on the cross because they were all getting baptized in tbe region

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we really don’t know if he was baptized here or wasn’t . many Israelites were baptized for remission before jesus died and rose. He knew of Jesus kingdom and recognized him as king so he had to have been hearing his word . I’m not suggesting there’s proof he was baptized , but that it’s a bad point of support to assume he wasn’t . We simply don’t know

 

[TrustandObey]

Amen!

Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation.
To make it such, is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The very Jesus you speak of commanded baptism as a requirement for salvation. (Mark 16:16 & Matthew 28:16-20)
To deny this is an attack on the sufficiency of His authority.

Make no mistake about this, you are simply pushing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology.
A watered down version of the Gospel of Christ. A theology without an example.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The very Jesus you speak of commanded baptism as a requirement for salvation. (Mark 16:16 & Matthew 28:16-20)
To deny this is an attack on the sufficiency of His authority.

Make no mistake about this, you are simply pushing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology.
A watered down version of the Gospel of Christ. A theology without an example.

It's unbelief

 

[studier]

I'm going through all the instances of hina (ἵνα, G2443) in John's writings and am discovering the whenever in order that makes sense, that also makes sense; so either can be used. But whenever that makes sense, in order that doesn't make sense, like in 1 John 5:3 above, and should be discarded.

@PaulThomson (PT) and I went through this issue months ago. I'm not speaking for him but as I recall he favored the sense of purpose for hina in all cases.

What do you think of its meaning in John6:29? PT again said purpose the other day. I'm going to try to lay this out below but first will say that touto can be looking forward or backward, so it gets a little interesting.

1. Touto referring forward and hina means "that"

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

2. Touto referring back and hina means in order that (purpose, goal)

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, [in order] that (purpose, goal) you believe in Him whom He sent."

In example #1, what exactly is Jesus saying - the work God requires is that you believe? Or????

In #2 it seems more clearly to mean; God requires you to work for the food that remains into eternal life in order for you to believe in Jesus.

I suppose we could make either work. At the moment #2 seems cleaner.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

@PaulThomson (PT) and I went through this issue months ago. I'm not speaking for him but as I recall he favored the sense of purpose for hina in all cases.

What do you think of its meaning in John6:29? PT again said purpose the other day. I'm going to try to lay this out below but first will say that touto can be looking forward or backward, so it gets a little interesting.

1. Touto referring forward and hina means "that"

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

2. Touto referring back and hina means in order that (purpose, goal)

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, [in order] that (purpose, goal) you believe in Him whom He sent."

In example #1, what exactly is Jesus saying - the work God requires is that you believe? Or????

In #2 it seems more clearly to mean; God requires you to work for the food that remains into eternal life in order for you to believe in Jesus.

I suppose we could make either work. At the moment #2 seems cleaner.

I think #1 makes most sense since we are commanded to believe in Jesus

And this is his commandment -- that (ἵνα, G2443) we should believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, as he gave commandment. 1 John 3:23​

​

Working to obtain the hidden manna, which is what Jesus was referring to, can't be done apart from faith. So belieivng into the bread of life is the same thing as working to collect the hidden manna

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

@PaulThomson (PT) and I went through this issue months ago. I'm not speaking for him but as I recall he favored the sense of purpose for hina in all cases.

What do you think of its meaning in John6:29? PT again said purpose the other day. I'm going to try to lay this out below but first will say that touto can be looking forward or backward, so it gets a little interesting.

1. Touto referring forward and hina means "that"

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

2. Touto referring back and hina means in order that (purpose, goal)

NKJ John 6:27-29 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, [in order] that (purpose, goal) you believe in Him whom He sent."

In example #1, what exactly is Jesus saying - the work God requires is that you believe? Or????

In #2 it seems more clearly to mean; God requires you to work for the food that remains into eternal life in order for you to believe in Jesus.

I suppose we could make either work. At the moment #2 seems cleaner.

Also believing into Christ is work as evidenced by 2 Peter 1:5-11

And employing all speed provide: excellence in your faith, knowledge in excellence, self-control in knowledge, endurance in self-control, godliness in endurance, brotherly affection in godliness, and love in brotherly affection. For these things belonging to you and increasing make you stand not idle or unfruitful into the full knowledge of our lord, Jesus Christ. ... Through this brothers, use speed to be making your calling and selection confirmed. For doing these things, by no means will you ever stumble. For thus the entrance into the unending kingdom of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly supplied to you. 2 Peter 1:5-8, 10-11​

 

[HeIsHere]

The very Jesus you speak of commanded baptism as a requirement for salvation. (Mark 16:16 & Matthew 28:16-20)
To deny this is an attack on the sufficiency of His authority.

Make no mistake about this, you are simply pushing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology.
A watered down version of the Gospel of Christ. A theology without an example.

Christ Jesus never commanded baptism as a requirement for salvation that has been clearly refuted multiple times.

It is only watered down for those who have to make up for their lack of faith in Christ Jesus as the full propitiation for all sins.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Christ Jesus never commanded baptism as a requirement for salvation that has been clearly refuted multiple times.

It is only watered down for those who have to make up for their lack of faith in Christ Jesus as the full propitiation for all sins.

So that's what it boils down to. People thinking they are being stalwarts of the faith by rejecting something God told new believers to do.

 

[studier]

I think #1 makes most sense since we are commanded to believe in Jesus

And this is his commandment -- that (ἵνα, G2443) we should believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, as he gave commandment. 1 John 3:23​

​

Working to obtain the hidden manna, which is what Jesus was referring to, can't be done apart from faith. So belieivng into the bread of life is the same thing as working to collect the hidden manna

John6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

• What is "the work of God" - their belief?
  • Explain, reword or clarify?
• How does the "work of God" correlate to "His commandment"?

I'll forego the hidden manna part for now.

 

[studier]

Also believing into Christ is work as evidenced by 2 Peter 1:5-11

And employing all speed provide: excellence in your faith, knowledge in excellence, self-control in knowledge, endurance in self-control, godliness in endurance, brotherly affection in godliness, and love in brotherly affection. For these things belonging to you and increasing make you stand not idle or unfruitful into the full knowledge of our lord, Jesus Christ. ... Through this brothers, use speed to be making your calling and selection confirmed. For doing these things, by no means will you ever stumble. For thus the entrance into the unending kingdom of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly supplied to you. 2 Peter 1:5-8, 10-11​

Work for believers.

in John6:29 Jesus is talking to unbelievers. Is this how you see it?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Work for believers.

in John6:29 Jesus is talking to unbelievers. Is this how you see it?

It's the same work for both. It's a commandment

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

John6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This (touto) is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

• What is "the work of God" - their belief?
  • Explain, reword or clarify?
• How does the "work of God" correlate to "His commandment"?.

Not their belief, but their believing (verb).

Isn't it work to do his commandments?

 

[Believer08]

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Same sentence structure:

He who catches the football and runs will score a touch down; but he that catches not, will not score.

Would I have to say “but he who does not catch the football and does not run”, to let people know they would not score? No, I wouldn’t, because anyone would know if they don’t catch the ball they can’t and won’t score. Same thing for believe and is baptized shall be saved. Jesus did not have to say “and is baptized not”, because anyone who doesn’t believe can’t and won’t be baptized for the reason Jesus said to be.

If you don’t believe the first half of Mark 16:16 that says you must believe and be baptized to be saved, then what part of the verse do you fall in? What do you not believe in that verse? You do not believe Jesus said he that believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. If people do not believe you must be baptized to be saved, they end up “believeth not”, as they do not believe what Jesus said!!

What happens to those who “believeth not…”?

It’s not me that’s saying it. It’s God’s Word that is.

 

[Inquisitor]

Not their belief, but their believing (verb).

Isn't it work to do his commandments?

Depends which commandments your talking about?

It is not a work to gain righteousness as for example following the law would be.

Water baptism is an outward, an external ritual and done once in a Christian lifetime.

There is also a spiritual baptism in the Holy Spirit which Jesus administers.

 

[Inquisitor]

Also believing into Christ is work as evidenced by 2 Peter 1:5-11

And employing all speed provide: excellence in your faith, knowledge in excellence, self-control in knowledge, endurance in self-control, godliness in endurance, brotherly affection in godliness, and love in brotherly affection. For these things belonging to you and increasing make you stand not idle or unfruitful into the full knowledge of our lord, Jesus Christ. ... Through this brothers, use speed to be making your calling and selection confirmed. For doing these things, by no means will you ever stumble. For thus the entrance into the unending kingdom of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly supplied to you. 2 Peter 1:5-8, 10-11​

2 Peter 1:5-11
Through this brothers, use speed to be making your calling and selection confirmed. For doing these things, by no means will you ever stumble.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Depends which commandments your talking about?

That would be Christ's commandments

 

[Inquisitor]

It’s not me that’s saying it. It’s God’s Word that is.

I reserve the capitalization of the, "W", in the usage of the, "word", for the Christ only.

The lowercase "word" emphasizes God's message conveyed through scripture and teaching,
while the uppercase "Word" emphasizes the person of Jesus Christ as the living embodiment
of God’s message and nature.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

See the difference?