God gave the law about Circumcision.
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It's eternal because God said it was eternal. And then Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away." Whether you think it was near to disappearing doesn't mean that it has disappeared.
And to your 2nd point, Jesus' sacrfice and our faith in His gracious salvation is the sign of our covenant with Him today. A circumcision today isn't necessary, but it isn't wrong in and of itself. Most importantly, if we refuse to accept that salvation through faith, then we truly will be cut off.
And to your 2nd point, Jesus' sacrfice and our faith in His gracious salvation is the sign of our covenant with Him today. A circumcision today isn't necessary, but it isn't wrong in and of itself. Most importantly, if we refuse to accept that salvation through faith, then we truly will be cut off.
It's only hypothetical if you believe as you do. And if all the promises of God are in Christ yes and amen, then all the work required on Jesus part is accomplished already. All may not have come to fruition, but He's not coming back to die again. And He sat down at the right hand of the Father, signifying that the work is done. So in this regard, the old patterns in the heavens and earth are passed away.
I can demonstrate this from scripture if you like.
I can demonstrate this from scripture if you like.
That doesn’t interact with what I said and is a moot point because it is the same thing. The same God who gave His law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the Law of Christ is not other than or contrary to anything that Christ taught.
Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant", He has made the first (covenant) obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete
and growing old is ready to disappear.
You cannot deny what the author of Hebrews has declared.
The old covenant, the first covenant with Israel is obsolete.
When He said, “A new covenant", He has made the first (covenant) obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete
and growing old is ready to disappear.
You cannot deny what the author of Hebrews has declared.
The old covenant, the first covenant with Israel is obsolete.
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For Gentiles who were not raised under the law of Moses, do not see transgression of the law as sin.
Paul used a different approach with the Gentiles.
Paul used the term, 'deeds of the flesh', to identify what you would call sin.
Paul is the authority for Gentiles on Christian behavior.
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles.
Romans 11:13
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry.
2 Peter 3:14-16
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom
given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things
hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures,
to their own destruction.
Paul used a different approach with the Gentiles.
Paul used the term, 'deeds of the flesh', to identify what you would call sin.
Paul is the authority for Gentiles on Christian behavior.
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles.
Romans 11:13
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry.
2 Peter 3:14-16
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom
given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things
hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures,
to their own destruction.
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray;
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray;
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
You illustrate the fallacy of proof texting by not even noting the rest of that chapter, indicating that you may belong to the circumcision group Paul warns Christians against in TIT 1:10-11, "There are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households (churches) by teaching things they ought not to teach."
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Amen
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect,
but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
Hebrews 7:18-19 KJV
“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV
It’s like a living Will. Until you die the words you had spoken about your possessions doesn’t have any force , it can still be changed. But when the person who made the Will with his words dies , all his words become permanent and binding. That’s what happened with Jesus word when he died it became the New Testament between God and mankind not removing but having fulfilled the old covenant and offered man a better and living way ….
Many put the old and new testaments together but they are two testaments each has its own mediator Moses and Jesus . Its own sacrifices and ways of worship its own blood of atonement animals and Jesus .
It’s own preisthood leviticle order of Aaron and melchezideks line which is Christs preisthood in the nt , each has its own promises and promised land it’s own word from God through the mediator they had Moses word in the ot and then there’s Jesus word in the nt given first to then then to everyone by the believers among them . One covenant wasn’t just forgotten about irs been fulfilled
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
Matthew 5:17-18 KJV
after he died and rose
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-48 KJV
Now there’s a lot of new things from Jesus and his apostles that need to be fulfilled and much already has but Each testament has its own prophecy the ot prophecies are fulfilled the nt ones even those originating from the ot aren’t all yet . Two seperate testaments one is fulfilled one is yet to be and still offers the promise
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect,
but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
Hebrews 7:18-19 KJV
“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV
It’s like a living Will. Until you die the words you had spoken about your possessions doesn’t have any force , it can still be changed. But when the person who made the Will with his words dies , all his words become permanent and binding. That’s what happened with Jesus word when he died it became the New Testament between God and mankind not removing but having fulfilled the old covenant and offered man a better and living way ….
Many put the old and new testaments together but they are two testaments each has its own mediator Moses and Jesus . Its own sacrifices and ways of worship its own blood of atonement animals and Jesus .
It’s own preisthood leviticle order of Aaron and melchezideks line which is Christs preisthood in the nt , each has its own promises and promised land it’s own word from God through the mediator they had Moses word in the ot and then there’s Jesus word in the nt given first to then then to everyone by the believers among them . One covenant wasn’t just forgotten about irs been fulfilled
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
Matthew 5:17-18 KJV
after he died and rose
“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:44-48 KJV
Now there’s a lot of new things from Jesus and his apostles that need to be fulfilled and much already has but Each testament has its own prophecy the ot prophecies are fulfilled the nt ones even those originating from the ot aren’t all yet . Two seperate testaments one is fulfilled one is yet to be and still offers the promise
Hebrews 11 says nothing whatsoever about "saving faith". It discusses "faith"... period.
Unless, of course, there is no other rational way to interpret it, which means that's exactly what God was saying through Paul.
Which, of course, is actually what He was doing. He was saying that our relationship with Him is not established by our obedience of the Law, and that obedience to the Law adds nothing. Our relationship with God is wholly and completely through faith in Jesus Christ. We are not in sin because our relationship with God is not through the mediation of the law.
As God says through Paul: "The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”"
Unless, of course, there is no other rational way to interpret it, which means that's exactly what God was saying through Paul.
Which, of course, is actually what He was doing. He was saying that our relationship with Him is not established by our obedience of the Law, and that obedience to the Law adds nothing. Our relationship with God is wholly and completely through faith in Jesus Christ. We are not in sin because our relationship with God is not through the mediation of the law.
As God says through Paul: "The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”"
That is such a complete misrepresentation of the finished work of Christ. I honestly don't think you understand what it means to be a Christian.
Jesus saves us from the penalty of sin, which is death (the second death). He died in our place.
God (through Peter) makes clear the issue in Acts 15:
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
You are agreeing with the Pharisees, and are clearly wrong.
Jesus saves us from the penalty of sin, which is death (the second death). He died in our place.
God (through Peter) makes clear the issue in Acts 15:
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
You are agreeing with the Pharisees, and are clearly wrong.
That does not follow.
Again, that does not follow. Here's what Hebrews 8:10 actually says:
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God, and they will be my people.
It says nothing whatsoever about "following the Mosaic Law".
God already told us what the problem was, in Romans 8:
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
God never intended obedience to the Law to result in perfection; He gave it for two purposes: to preserve His people until they brought forth the Messiah, and to show them their need for a saviour. We and all people have that same need.
For once we agree (in some small part), but you still miss the point: no mature Christian claims that we are free to sin. Every mature Christian may state confidently that we are not under the Sinai covenant.
Note what Romans 8:4 states: "And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
That should be the final word on the matter. Because of Christ's death, the requirements of the law HAVE BEEN MET. Past tense. Done. Jesus said it Himself: "It is finished!"
Again, that does not follow. Here's what Hebrews 8:10 actually says:
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God, and they will be my people.
It says nothing whatsoever about "following the Mosaic Law".
God already told us what the problem was, in Romans 8:
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
God never intended obedience to the Law to result in perfection; He gave it for two purposes: to preserve His people until they brought forth the Messiah, and to show them their need for a saviour. We and all people have that same need.
For once we agree (in some small part), but you still miss the point: no mature Christian claims that we are free to sin. Every mature Christian may state confidently that we are not under the Sinai covenant.
Note what Romans 8:4 states: "And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
That should be the final word on the matter. Because of Christ's death, the requirements of the law HAVE BEEN MET. Past tense. Done. Jesus said it Himself: "It is finished!"
Galatians 4:9-10 ~ Now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain.
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