Understanding God’s election

[BillyBob]

And can't even see they're fighting for man's boast. Salvation is of God, 100% God lest ANY man boast. They want that boast, they can't see that this boast is what they're debating so hard for. To claim at least a little of Gods glory for themselves. I don't know why they seem to have so much of a problem that God gets ALL the glory and ALL the credit for every bit of salvation. They seem to be unable to accept this.

I totally agree with what you have written. However, even though I agree, it remains a struggle for me and man in general to not want to take some of His glory. This is something that each of us needs to pray to be eliminated from our heart.....,

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus



An update: From evasion to false allegation to 'everybody has' means all questions reflect to lengthy narratives.

You're consistent in m.o.

I'm not reading your post.

If you have a pointed question, you can extract it for me.

That's your usual cop out. Not surprised. But of course, I don't believe for a moment that you didn't read the post; but you certainly have no reasonable, rational or theologically sound rebuttals.

I'll take you up on your generous offer, however. Can't resist. Why not tackle the second paragraph in my 9270?

Have a nice evening, sir.

 

[lrs68]

The Canons speak of faith in this way:

The Way God Gives Faith
In this way, therefore, faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for people to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on them, breathed and infused into them. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent—the act of believing—by human choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that God who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people and produces in them both the will to believe and the belief itself.

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

^
Verse 3 clearly indicates that everyone is not measured or given the same amount of Faith. Verse 3 also indicates those with much Faith can tell the difference between them and those with little Faith by the warning of thinking more highly than another.

But what the Scriptures clearly indicate is that Faith comes directly by HEARING the Gospel preached. That means anyone who hears is given Faith. But nowhere does it say all who HEARS the Gospel, who is also given a measure of Faith, will always 100% end up a believer and saved.

And still, those who heard and ultimately rejected God, still have a measure of Faith.

 

[Rufus]

There was a problem with my formatting that I did not notice within five minutes of posting. This should be clearer.

Rufus said:
Of course he can. Even the wicked know how to do good on the horizontal plane (Mat 5:46; Lk 6:32).

You're assuming God enables people to do evil! Did God enable Judas to betray his Son? Or did God remove his gracious restraints on Judas' evil thoughts and intentions of his heart (home of his faculties) to accomplish his perfect will? God is not morally culpable whenever he gives anyone over to their naturally acquired reprobate mind, since he owes his Grace to no one.

Paul Thomson replies:

How did Judas betray Jesus without misusing the consciousness, body and mind that God gave him? How can someone do evil without misusing the consciousness, body and mind that God gave them? How is that not God enabling them to do the evil.

Rufus said:
But there is a difference. In the doing of good, God is gracious to the elect by empowering them positively to turn from evil in order to do genuine good which ultimately involves bringing glory to Him; whereas in the doing of evil, God judicially removes his undeserved restraining grace from the wicked so that they can commit the evil they naturally love and are always prone to do.
I notice that you did not say "In the doing of good, God is gracious to the unbelievers by empowering them to do genuine good which ultimately involves bringing glory to Him."

Paul Thomson replies:

You are dissimulating. What you actually believe is that in the doing of evil, God judicially removes his undeserved restraining grace from the wicked so that they can commit the evil they naturally love and are always prone to do because God made them capable of only choosing evil. How is that not God empowering and enabling them to do evil?

Regarding your question re Judas, you answered it yourself. He MISUSED what God has given; and as a free moral agent he did that freely. God didn't force him to misuse or abuse anything. He just naturally did that.

Re your second question. When God removes his restraining grace, that does not equate to him forcing anyone to make evil choices. Again, they freely make those choices on their own according to their OWN wicked nature. God did not create them with that nature. That's all on the First Adam. When God gives people over to a reprobate mind (see Rom 1 and the three "God gave them over to..." passages), he simply gives them over to their own fleshly desires. The only way God could be morally culpable is if he reneged on some promise that he had made, or he owed them his grace because he somehow became indebted to mankind and he decided not to make good on his debt.

Also, your objections assume that God's will and man's will are are irreconcilable with each other! They are not! You should bone up on the biblical doctrine of Compatiblism. I did write a post on this very topic in my 8980 which I wrote several days ago. Your objections also assume that man's will is not enslaved to his evil heart and help captive to his sinful nature. Man is in a prison cell of sin and his only way out is that God miraculously deliver sinners from their captivity, as the Lord did with Peter, for example.

 

[rogerg]

I totally agree with what you have written. However, even though I agree, it remains a struggle for me and man in general to not want to take some of His glory. This is something that each of us needs to pray to be eliminated from our heart.....,

[Rom 7:22-25, 81-2 KJV]
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Rufus]

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

^
Verse 3 clearly indicates that everyone is not measured or given the same amount of Faith. Verse 3 also indicates those with much Faith can tell the difference between them and those with little Faith by the warning of thinking more highly than another.

But what the Scriptures clearly indicate is that Faith comes directly by HEARING the Gospel preached. That means anyone who hears is given Faith. But nowhere does it say all who HEARS the Gospel, who is also given a measure of Faith, will always 100% end up a believer and saved.

And still, those who heard and ultimately rejected God, still have a measure of Faith.

Faith also comes as a direct, supernatural gift from God that he gives through his Holy Spirit to his people. One is born again by both the Spirit and the Word.

 

[rogerg]

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

^
Verse 3 clearly indicates that everyone is not measured or given the same amount of Faith. Verse 3 also indicates those with much Faith can tell the difference between them and those with little Faith by the warning of thinking more highly than another.

But what the Scriptures clearly indicate is that Faith comes directly by HEARING the Gospel preached. That means anyone who hears is given Faith. But nowhere does it say all who HEARS the Gospel, who is also given a measure of Faith, will always 100% end up a believer and saved.

And still, those who heard and ultimately rejected God, still have a measure of Faith.

Wrong measure. The measure is the wisdom/ability God gives to those He saves to be able to measure Christ's faith - that His faith alone was sufficient to bring forth salvation

a measure
PHRASE
g3358:


metron

1. measure, an instrument for measuring
   1. a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid
   2. a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod
   3. proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment
2. determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit
   1. the required measure, the due, fit, measure

 

[BillyBob]

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

^
Verse 3 clearly indicates that everyone is not measured or given the same amount of Faith. Verse 3 also indicates those with much Faith can tell the difference between them and those with little Faith by the warning of thinking more highly than another.

But what the Scriptures clearly indicate is that Faith comes directly by HEARING the Gospel preached. That means anyone who hears is given Faith. But nowhere does it say all who HEARS the Gospel, who is also given a measure of Faith, will always 100% end up a believer and saved.

And still, those who heard and ultimately rejected God, still have a measure of Faith.

I do not disagree that faith comes from hearing! In fact, I must admit that I sat in church for quite some time before actually putting my trust in God. Then, a certain sermon was taught that made me understand that even though I was not worthy of God's grace – that He had given it to me anyway. That was over 40 years ago!

This post is just to remind me that I did not turn to God until He change my heart and enabled me to do so. That it was Him and not me that caused me to be renewed.
That's why I like the Canons of Dort and return to it often – to refresh my memory.

 

[PaulThomson]

Regarding your question re Judas, you answered it yourself. He MISUSED what God has given; and as a free moral agent he did that freely. God didn't force him to misuse or abuse anything. He just naturally did that.

Re your second question. When God removes his restraining grace, that does not equate to him forcing anyone to make evil choices. Again, they freely make those choices on their own according to their OWN wicked nature. God did not create them with that nature. That's all on the First Adam. When God gives people over to a reprobate mind (see Rom 1 and the three "God gave them over to..." passages), he simply gives them over to their own fleshly desires. The only way God could be morally culpable is if he reneged on some promise that he had made, or he owed them his grace because he somehow became indebted to mankind and he decided not to make good on his debt.

Also, your objections assume that God's will and man's will are are irreconcilable with each other! They are not! You should bone up on the biblical doctrine of Compatiblism. I did write a post on this very topic in my 8980 which I wrote several days ago. Your objections also assume that man's will is not enslaved to his evil heart and help captive to his sinful nature. Man is in a prison cell of sin and his only way out is that God miraculously deliver sinners from their captivity, as the Lord did with Peter, for example.

So, God did enable and empower Judas to betray Jesus. And if Judas misused faculties God gave to Judas, why does God need to give novel faculties to us for us to do right rather than we just rightly use the same faculties we have been misusing?

Who, according to you, decreed from eternity past that humans develop a sinful nature, and that most humans would remain enslaved to their sinful nature without any ability to escape from their bondage to their sinful nature? Who, according to you, gave those reprobates the ability to sin? Did they wrest themselves free from God's will that they remain as righteous as He created them in Adam?

 

[Magenta]

James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

 

[Magenta]

why does God need to give novel faculties to us for us to do right

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Jimbone]

I totally agree with what you have written. However, even though I agree, it remains a struggle for me and man in general to not want to take some of His glory. This is something that each of us needs to pray to be eliminated from our heart.....,

Very true. Great point and reading this made me immediately wonder in which ways I'm doing this. I was specifically addressing this topic in regards to what I said, but agree 100% that this problem goes FAR beyond the "freewill" debate. Thanks for this comment, it's easy to get far too into pointing the finger at others instead of the mirror.

 

[studier]

Interpreting John5 re: Election:

After Jesus speaks of the testimony of John the Baptist.

Jesus speaks of the testimony about Jesus (“they” below = the Judeans in Jerusalem seeking to kill Jesus for allegedly violating Sabbath)

• John5:36 The works Jesus does testify about Jesus
  • The Father has given Jesus works to complete
  • Jesus does these works
  • These works testify about Jesus
  • These works testify that the Father sent Jesus
• John5:37 The Father has testified about Jesus
  • They have not ever heard the Father’s voice
  • They have not ever seen the Father’s appearance
• John5:39 The Scriptures testify about Jesus
  • They search the Scriptures because they think they have eternal life in the Scriptures
  • Moses wrote about Jesus (John5:45-47)

So, after essentially disqualifying John the Baptist for a greater witness in this debate, Jesus identifies 3 [legal] witnesses (per Mosaic Law) to who He is and who sent Him.

Though Jesus does not speak directly in John5 of God drawing men, is Jesus speaking of ways God draws men to come to Jesus?

• Jesus does speak of the concept of coming to Him in John5:40, which IMO so far ties this narrative to Jesus' more detailed information in John6 about coming to Jesus.
• Thus, IMO these testimonies all effectively from the Father are examples of the Father’s drawing/enabling a man to come to Jesus by teaching [about Jesus]. The Father testifies (John5) / the Father teaches (John6) / the Father draws/enables (John6)

This is about the different ways Election is said to be explained by John6.

So far in John5 we see The Father providing legal testimony about Jesus, IMO teaching about Jesus / drawing/enabling men to come to Jesus.

 

[studier]

What, in the context of John 12:32, makes it natural to infer that pantas (accusative masculine plural) refers to all nations (ethnE accusative neuter plural) rather than all men (anthropous: accusative masculine plural)?

In Greek pantas ethnE (all nations) is a gender mismatch grammatically. pantas (masculine plural) (ethnE) (neuter plural).

pantas anthrOpous (all men) is a match in terms of gender. pantas (masculine plural) anthrOpous (masculine plural)

It looks like no answer to this one yet. Consistent m.o. or oversight or............. I offered to explain parsing but no response.

 

[Rufus]

So, God did enable and empower Judas to betray Jesus. And if Judas misused faculties God gave to Judas, why does God need to give novel faculties to us for us to do right rather than we just rightly use the same faculties we have been misusing?

Who, according to you, decreed from eternity past that humans develop a sinful nature, and that most humans would remain enslaved to their sinful nature without any ability to escape from their bondage to their sinful nature? Who, according to you, gave those reprobates the ability to sin? Did they wrest themselves free from God's will that they remain as righteous as He created them in Adam?

Judas freely chose to act wickedly and his choice was in perfect alignment with God's will and eternal purposes -- both for Christ, the elect, the non-elect and Judas himself. At least Judas owned his sin, which is far more than Adam ever did! Judas was overcome with genuine guilt

God decreed in eternity what the devastating effects of sin would be. But he is not morally culpable because he never forces any sinner to sin. When he gives people over to their reprobate hearts, nature and minds, the people simply do what comes most naturally to them and what they personally LOVE doing -- which is basking in the Black Darkness because they love to sin. Man is everything that God is not. Mankind is Darkness itself while God is pure Light and in Him there is no darkness.

We should also understand that this present world is not what God intended in the beginning; therefore, in this age God must work through the spiritual forces of darkness and evil to accomplish good. Wasn't God's hand in all the evils that befell Joseph; yet, didn't much good came out of that? Ditto with Judas. Judas willingly played his role that God appointed him to play; so while Judas perpetrated the worst evil imaginable upon the Messiah, God took that evil and turned into the Greatest Possible Good for all the peoples of this earth. And the risen Christ and his Gospel pave a clear, well-defined way for the Messiah and Last Adam to one day bring God's original intentions for mankind to fruition in a New Order.

 

[studier]

And can't even see they're fighting for man's boast. Salvation is of God, 100% God lest ANY man boast. They want that boast, they can't see that this boast is what they're debating so hard for. To claim at least a little of Gods glory for themselves. I don't know why they seem to have so much of a problem that God gets ALL the glory and ALL the credit for every bit of salvation. They seem to be unable to accept this.

I totally agree with what you have written. However, even though I agree, it remains a struggle for me and man in general to not want to take some of His glory. This is something that each of us needs to pray to be eliminated from our heart.....,

NKJ 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

FWIW, this verse more literally speaks of guiding the word of truth along a straight path so the goal can be reached without deviations. It speaks of handling/teaching the word accurately.

Although much of this debating can be exactly the opposite of that directive, I think you're overstepping in saying the fight is for man's boast.

At some level neither side takes the position that Salvation is not from God alone and to Him is the glory. The discussion is more about what if anything God requires of men to be saved from start to finish. The topic of this thread is understanding God's election. It's been a debate for at least hundreds of years, and it remains a debate.

Please lighten up on judging intentions. There are a lot of things involved here and some of us have been through many years and stages of prayers and reflections on this and many such matters and have been at various depths in God's Word in Christ in Spirit always seeking to handle it in a straight way.

 

[GWH]

Judas freely chose to act wickedly and his choice was in perfect alignment with God's will and eternal purposes -- both for Christ, the elect, the non-elect and Judas himself. At least Judas owned his sin, which is far more than Adam ever did! Judas was overcome with genuine guilt

God decreed in eternity what the devastating effects of sin would be. But he is not morally culpable because he never forces any sinner to sin. When he gives people over to their reprobate hearts, nature and minds, the people simply do what comes most naturally to them and what they personally LOVE doing -- which is basking in the Black Darkness because they love to sin. Man is everything that God is not. Mankind is Darkness itself while God is pure Light and in Him there is no darkness.

We should also understand that this present world is not what God intended in the beginning; therefore, in this age God must work through the spiritual forces of darkness and evil to accomplish good. Wasn't God's hand in all the evils that befell Joseph; yet, didn't much good came out of that? Ditto with Judas. Judas willingly played his role that God appointed him to play; so while Judas perpetrated the worst evil imaginable upon the Messiah, God took that evil and turned into the Greatest Possible Good for all the peoples of this earth. And the risen Christ and his Gospel pave a clear, well-defined way for the Messiah and Last Adam to one day bring God's original intentions for mankind to fruition in a New Order.

Yes, and Satan was the first to make the theoretical option of evil or good actual by choosing to be/do devil.
Also, God is not culpable because hell is just per the principle of reaping what one sows or karma or what today is called logical consequences.
P.S. Human nature as created was good, and Christ was fully human while perfect.

 

[Magenta]

P.S. Human nature as created was good, and Christ was fully human while perfect.

Human nature was good but was of the natural world and as such was subject to it.

 

[Jimbone]

Yes, and Satan was the first to make the theoretical option of evil or good actual by choosing to be/do devil.
Also, God is not culpable because hell is just per the principle of reaping what one sows or karma or what today is called logical consequences.
P.S. Human nature as created was good, and Christ was fully human while perfect.

Yeah but Jesus wasn't born of Adam, He was born of the Spirit, so you're point doesn't exist. Are you really comparing Jesus to us?

 

[Jimbone]

Human nature was good but was of the natural world and as such was subject to it.

It was good but then FELL, right? So is no longer "good", not even one right? None good, I think.