Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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How did Adam think that eating of the tree himself could have saved Eve?
From face to face teaching with the Lord. That a perfect being had to die for sin......That is why Adam is called a "Type of Christ."

Rom 5:14~~Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Adam tried to save the one he loved with all his heart. It wasn't a "blame Game."
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Thank you for your very kind words. I had no idea Genez was suffering emotional distress
when he posted to BillyBob. But such is the nature of his hypocritical replies. C'est la vie.
Not one for saying things i don't think are true friend, some of the panels you create are incredible, very deep thinking/spirituality. Busy the past couple of days, been swapping some big components on my main rigs, going to install Mint 22:1 on them now too.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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From face to face teaching with the Lord. That a perfect being had to die for sin......That is why Adam is called a "Type of Christ."

Rom 5:14~~Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Adam tried to save the one he loved with all his heart. It wasn't a "blame Game."
But wasn't Eve just as perfect when she ate? That is, until she ate. Wasn't her eating her exact transgression? I can't make the leap that his eating could've been any degree a more 'perfect' action. Is it related to his having eaten fully aware of the transgression of it? That effectually he 'took sin upon himself'? Yet, this plan failed in saving Eve, and condemned humanity in its entirety. Why did this not save Eve, as such like Jesus sacrifice is effective in doing?

Thank you for entertaining my questions. I'll ever be intrigued to learn of the things concerning the actual workings of sacrificial love. That is, until I think I fully understand it, of course.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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:oops: Adam tried to save the woman? :oops:

If you read the actual text, no such thing is said.
You're right, the text does not say this. I do however like to think of it more like Adam wasn't going to let Eve face death alone. I imagine, and just "imagine" that Adam was horrified when he saw Eve had eaten the fruit. I'd like to think that Adam did eat knowingly, but did so out of love for Eve and not letting her face it alone. A personal view I'd NEVER argue for because scripture just doesn't say, and I've never thought of it as trying to save her, but when I read that it was what I thought of. That all said and shared, the bottom line it that you're right, scripture does not say and we have to bring these things to the text. That's not the proper way to read scripture, we are to pull from.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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No, I know the angels are real. I think largely what you wrote about the angels is fiction, but it's pretty much irrelevant to the point anyways. To the point you're getting closer at least, but I think you let the simplicity of the text go over your head, which that's forgiveable, that's pretty common actually. It's not really very complicated at all what happened in the Garden. Nor is God's will very complicated at all, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and be saved, reject that Jesus is the Son of God and be damned, it's actually pretty simple.

2 Corinthians 11:3

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Good for you....

Glad to see you have it all figured out.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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You're right, the text does not say this. I do however like to think of it more like Adam wasn't going to let Eve face death alone. I imagine, and just "imagine" that Adam was horrified when he saw Eve had eaten the fruit. I'd like to think that Adam did eat knowingly, but did so out of love for Eve and not letting her face it alone. A personal view I'd NEVER argue for because scripture just doesn't say, and I've never thought of it as trying to save her, but when I read that it was what I thought of. That all said and shared, the bottom line it that you're right, scripture does not say and we have to bring these things to the text. That's not the proper way to read scripture, we are to pull from.
Thank you for your response, Jim. I think it is great when people can admit they are extrapolating.
Unfortunately, many cannot or will not or simply refuse to admit when they are reading something
into the text. And it is not like it is not required at times, for not everything is spelled out in the text.
In fact, some of the stories, if not a great many of them, are short on details, and in other instances
we need to draw from more than one verse to come to a conclusion on any matter, which accounts
in part for the many views present on any issue. @posthuman believes very much as you do in this
regard and I do see the sense of it, especially given that Christ is said to be the last Adam and He gave up His life for us...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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But wasn't Eve just as perfect when she ate? That is, until she ate. Wasn't her eating her exact transgression? I can't make the leap that his eating could've been any degree a more 'perfect' action. Is it related to his having eaten fully aware of the transgression of it? That effectually he 'took sin upon himself'? Yet, this plan failed in saving Eve, and condemned humanity in its entirety. Why did this not save Eve, as such like Jesus sacrifice is effective in doing?

Thank you for entertaining my questions. I'll ever be intrigued to learn of the things concerning the actual workings of sacrificial love. That is, until I think I fully understand it, of course.
Neither Adm nor Eve were said to be perfect. We are perfected in Christ.

God knew Adam and Eve would disobey. They were of the natural world after all.

All these Pelagians we have here basically ascribe to the natural man the ability Jesus Christ had to lay His human
will aside in doing the will of God. It is a ridiculous assumption for them to make but they make it none-the-less.


And if you recall, Jesus sweat drops of blood in struggling to lay His will aside.
But to the Pelagian, doing such is no big deal for the natural man.



James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .:)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Magenta is a deep, logical thinker, you are one of those who is deliberately provocative and irritating, calm, rational discussion clearly isn't your thing.

In all fairness, you might be junior in years as well as behaviour.
It stays calm as long as you agree with what she wants others to believe...
That's notreal calm...

.......
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
1,249
546
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But wasn't Eve just as perfect when she ate? That is, until she ate. Wasn't her eating her exact transgression? I can't make the leap that his eating could've been any degree a more 'perfect' action. Is it related to his having eaten fully aware of the transgression of it? That effectually he 'took sin upon himself'? Yet, this plan failed in saving Eve, and condemned humanity in its entirety. Why did this not save Eve, as such like Jesus sacrifice is effective in doing?

Thank you for entertaining my questions. I'll ever be intrigued to learn of the things concerning the actual workings of sacrificial love. That is, until I think I fully understand it, of course.
I understand that this is an area of conjecture and line upon line. It's not a blunt "You will never perish" verse.

Analytical. Adam and Eve were created in Gods image. Sinless. Had 100% access to the God of the universe. Not your ordinary rednecks from Georgia. Einstein was an ignorant caveman compared to Adam and Eve.

Adam trying to save his wife is the biggest and best thing he could have done for her and the rest of humanity.......If humanity is condemned through Adam............Humanity can be saved.

It's the biggest blessing in disguise in the history of man.

All men are condemned........All men have the opportunity for salvation. Adam could have gone right to the tree of life and lived forever with a sinner that would never get better.
 
Dec 20, 2023
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But wasn't Eve just as perfect when she ate? That is, until she ate. Wasn't her eating her exact transgression? I can't make the leap that his eating could've been any degree a more 'perfect' action. Is it related to his having eaten fully aware of the transgression of it? That effectually he 'took sin upon himself'? Yet, this plan failed in saving Eve, and condemned humanity in its entirety. Why did this not save Eve, as such like Jesus sacrifice is effective in doing?
Some food for thought:
Gen 2:15-17

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The command was issued to Adam, and this was made prior to Eve being created. However, Adam became her federal head, and as such was guilty of her eating as well as himself. And, after he had eaten even tried to excuse himself by saying:

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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I over-reacted on your fictional angel story, and for that I am sorry. However, I must say it was loaded with miss-information to support your FW position, and even worse must have come from the last Walt Disney movie that you watched.
It looks like you think what took place in the book of Job was actually done in private?

Job was placed on display before all the angels to see if Satan's wager with God would pan out.
Our lives are like a show .. one of teaching...that is on display before the angels.

And, with God's show, they can interact with the performance God has provided for them.


Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing
some have entertained angels without knowing it."
Hebrews 13:2

They're watching all the time!​
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,387
2,264
113
I understand that this is an area of conjecture and line upon line. It's not a blunt "You will never perish" verse.

Analytical. Adam and Eve were created in Gods image. Sinless. Had 100% access to the God of the universe. Not your ordinary rednecks from Georgia. Einstein was an ignorant caveman compared to Adam and Eve.

Adam trying to save his wife is the biggest and best thing he could have done for her and the rest of humanity.......If humanity is condemned through Adam............Humanity can be saved.

It's the biggest blessing in disguise in the history of man.

All men are condemned........All men have the opportunity for salvation. Adam could have gone right to the tree of life and lived forever with a sinner that would never get better.
Death entered by sin through Adam, so I'm assuming that the life Adam possessed was good, and even very good with the addition of Eve, but not (as) perfect as the possibility of life in Christ. I'm still working out the reasoning for the necessity of our death (even at Adam's starting state of existence) in order to reach our full potential in Christ, so I don't have very much more commentary about that at this time.

Some food for thought:
Gen 2:15-17

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

The command was issued to Adam, and this was made prior to Eve being created. However, Adam became her federal head, and as such was guilty of her eating as well as himself. And, after he had eaten even tried to excuse himself by saying:

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
In offering the excuse for himself, it seems to me that, effectively, his plea to God was, "don't let me die since she was the cause of my behavior." Of course, we know that God provided the way for all of us, in spite of whatever actual original cause of it, and Jesus' effective plea was, in essence, "let Me die that they may live."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,584
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Not one for saying things i don't think are true friend, some of the panels you create are incredible, very deep thinking/spirituality. Busy the past couple of days, been swapping some big components on my main rigs, going to install Mint 22:1 on them now too.
Oh my goodness, I would never attempt what you are doing, kudos to you! And we do have some here
who know their way around such components to some degree at least... so if you need any help, make
sure to ask in the user2user section. Ah, my panels. Many have been inspired from the discussions that
transpire here. One of our lovely members would like to see me employ more male figures in/on them,
but I am not very co-operative that way LOL. I have done a few... quite a few actually. I did even used to
construct figures representative of Jesus, but some found that offensive, so I ceased and desisted in
that endeavour for the most part....



John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
:)
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Yea the world is the enemy of God. That doesn't mean it has a will of its own, it just means it's in opposition to the only will that actually exists, and for futility at that since no one and no thing will ever stop the invincible will of God, doubly so now that our Lord Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of God preparing his armies, praise Jesus.
what if the situation is like this God creates all things and then mankind in his own image and likeness then he gives mankind dominion over all he has created upon the earth and blesses them…

and then Satan deceives them and leads then astray from what God told them about life and death and leads them into death corrupting thier Will making it like this

And resulting in this dispostion by God who created it all

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

…And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7, 12-13‬ ‭

We either need to think God intended from the start to grieve his own heart and cause himself to repent for creating mankind . Or we need to see that mankknd is an essential part of the design of creation and what we will and do leads what God then does in response

sometimes we forget God is living and we are created after his likeness and image what I mean is We can provoke God to anger and wrath against us

“Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭25:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

most often it’s to correct mankind’s behaviors but we often never respond

“And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭14:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s trying to reform us from our corrupted Will

“And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭26:23-25‬ ‭

there’s a constant interaction and response it’s always been based upon if we choose good or evil with our own Will since they partook of that forbidden knowledge of good and evil were in a snare caught between good and evil and need are formation of our Will by the gospel the world is full of wickedness that then corrupts our freewill and we become slaves to those things over time and need freedom through Jesus