Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Daniel 4:35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14:24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139:16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16:9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19:21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
Another often overlooked aspect. The fig leaves covering....The Hebrew can mean something like our modern day "Ghillie suit." Who was Adam really hiding from? The serpent. He knew he had sinned and was now vulnerable to his lies.
Adam knew God was omniscient and all knowing and MERCIFUL........he wasn't hiding from God.
Adam knew God was omniscient and all knowing and MERCIFUL........he wasn't hiding from God.
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The simple fact is if they told the truth they both would have said .. "we wanted to eat it so we did". Wanting to eat wasn't the problem, anymore than Christ not wanting to be tortured to death, but unlike Him they failed to apply "not my will but yours be done Father".
That is free will at work. Taking one's desire and making one's own determination as to what will be done about it. This is what James speaks of in his book.
James 1:4-16
14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Do not be led astray, my dear brothers and sisters.
That is free will at work. Taking one's desire and making one's own determination as to what will be done about it. This is what James speaks of in his book.
James 1:4-16
14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Do not be led astray, my dear brothers and sisters.
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Yeah, sure, "the devil made me do it". ROFL
And where is that in scripture? We know Adam did, as for the woman ...???
Or a desperate one who doesn't want take full responsibility for their own actions! People blaming others for tricking them is the oldest game in the world. My bank quite often has on it's web site articles of how much money people lose every year because of scammers. How would they know that if no-one admits to being tricked.
There is no talk of anything happening to Eve until after they had both eaten. Maybe you have forgotten "the two had become one".
Gen.3:6-7
6 When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
You will also note in verse 6 what it was that made Eve eat in the first place and not a single word about being deceived.
You can stick to your fairy tale of "noble Adam" but he was anything but noble and Eve knew she was not to eat from that tree but she did it anyway.
They both chose to do the wrong thing of their own free will. No-one can escape reality no matter how hard they imagine they can and the LORD God is the reality.
And where is that in scripture? We know Adam did, as for the woman ...???
Or a desperate one who doesn't want take full responsibility for their own actions! People blaming others for tricking them is the oldest game in the world. My bank quite often has on it's web site articles of how much money people lose every year because of scammers. How would they know that if no-one admits to being tricked.
There is no talk of anything happening to Eve until after they had both eaten. Maybe you have forgotten "the two had become one".
Gen.3:6-7
6 When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
You will also note in verse 6 what it was that made Eve eat in the first place and not a single word about being deceived.
You can stick to your fairy tale of "noble Adam" but he was anything but noble and Eve knew she was not to eat from that tree but she did it anyway.
They both chose to do the wrong thing of their own free will. No-one can escape reality no matter how hard they imagine they can and the LORD God is the reality.
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I’m saying eve knew also look at her reply. I’m saying they both knew what God said then the serpent lied about the fruit and told them a different story about it. Eve then ate the fruit and told Adam about it and he then ate the fruit. It’s knew what God said the scripture says eve was beguiled by the serpents lies and deceit .
eve wasn’t ignorant of the commandment she knew it and then was given an alternative by the serpent. It’s a choice for the individual.
eve wasn’t ignorant of the commandment she knew it and then was given an alternative by the serpent. It’s a choice for the individual.
“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
Genesis 3:17 KJV
seems like it does to me …..but I still dont have any desire to argue with you sister.
seems like eve lietened to the serpents lie ….then she spoke to Adam and he then hearkened to her words like it says there and then he ate the fruit …but just what I think is there pretty clearly
God said to Adam
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
eve said to the serpent
“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
Genesis 3:2-3 KJV
And finally the serpent says to her
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
Genesis 3:4 KJV
Now she suddenly sees the fruit as of its good and not certain death he corrupted her thinking which was correct
And Adam finally hears her word and eats the fruit
“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
Genesis 3:17 KJV
It’s the same thing that corrupts us now God spoke in the Gospel life to those who believe him. But then other words come after explaining how that is t correct and doesn’t apply to you , then tbey teach you a different thing about a subject and that leads you astray
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
The serpent spread the first false doctrine in the Bible and eve spread it to Adam …..but again it’s just something I think is pretty obvious and written there …..they fell because of a lie both of them did Adam lietened to eve and eve had listened to the serpent
Not suprising that repenting and listening to Jesus in the gospel saves us and redeems us the lie killed us and the truth saves us
cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
Genesis 3:17 KJV
seems like it does to me …..but I still dont have any desire to argue with you sister.
seems like eve lietened to the serpents lie ….then she spoke to Adam and he then hearkened to her words like it says there and then he ate the fruit …but just what I think is there pretty clearly
God said to Adam
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
eve said to the serpent
“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
Genesis 3:2-3 KJV
And finally the serpent says to her
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
Genesis 3:4 KJV
Now she suddenly sees the fruit as of its good and not certain death he corrupted her thinking which was correct
And Adam finally hears her word and eats the fruit
“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
Genesis 3:17 KJV
It’s the same thing that corrupts us now God spoke in the Gospel life to those who believe him. But then other words come after explaining how that is t correct and doesn’t apply to you , then tbey teach you a different thing about a subject and that leads you astray
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
The serpent spread the first false doctrine in the Bible and eve spread it to Adam …..but again it’s just something I think is pretty obvious and written there …..they fell because of a lie both of them did Adam lietened to eve and eve had listened to the serpent
Not suprising that repenting and listening to Jesus in the gospel saves us and redeems us the lie killed us and the truth saves us
I've been thinking, where exactly does it say it was the serpent who deceived her?
We know the serpent lied to Eve. We also know Eve said in addition to not eat she said to not touch but the serpent never said anything about that and the Lord never said anything about that so where did it come from?
What if the deception was not simply the serpent's lie but a combination of that and Adam's own struggle with the temptation of not eating. I can imagine Adam saying to Eve something like "The Lord told us not to eat it so just stay right away from the tree Eve, don't touch it or even so much as look at it.
We only have Eve's word it was the serpent who tricked her, a fallen Eve I might add, and the only other scripture I know of is in Timothy and it doesn't state the origin of the deception.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
Speculation? Maybe, but no more than others have speculated about Adam's motives.
We know the serpent lied to Eve. We also know Eve said in addition to not eat she said to not touch but the serpent never said anything about that and the Lord never said anything about that so where did it come from?
What if the deception was not simply the serpent's lie but a combination of that and Adam's own struggle with the temptation of not eating. I can imagine Adam saying to Eve something like "The Lord told us not to eat it so just stay right away from the tree Eve, don't touch it or even so much as look at it.
We only have Eve's word it was the serpent who tricked her, a fallen Eve I might add, and the only other scripture I know of is in Timothy and it doesn't state the origin of the deception.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
Speculation? Maybe, but no more than others have speculated about Adam's motives.
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yeah if you think about the setting just before this happened consider
“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
( then eve is created )
….And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:8, 15-17, 21-22, 25 KJV
awe don’t really know how long they were in the farsen some insist it was the very same day but I m not sure personally how long they were there.
It’s obvious eve was taught the commandment most likely by Adam or possibly the lord could be either maybe she was just created knowing but genesis Leaves a lot of details out so it’s sort of connecting dots and opinions really .
She definately knew and I think of you have a deadly fruit it’s a good call to not even touch it . They should have added “ don’t even look at it “ and definetely no listening to lying snakes who contradict Gods word
I think beguiled probably is a better term there than deceived
“ To charm or enchant (someone), sometimes in a deceptive way.”
think of the setting they had no reason to think the fruit wouldnt harm them but would make them as gods until the serpent said it to them
All the sudden knowing if they eat the fruit they’ll die , the serpent decides to work to tempt and charm them “ ahh shucks it’s not gonna hurt you , god just doesn’t want you to have it , it’s actually going to make you like gods and you’ll be wise and know good and evil “
I’d say it was definately a deception in a very subtle and crafty way he sort of charmed his way to his end game of getting them to eat the fruit . A lie but a subtle and seemingly simple one not even really rebellious if it’s framed right ect ect
He pur it into her mind , she then spread it to her husband is my guess
Its really present a lot in scriptire that God blames the serpent or Satan alot for mans downfalls and struggles ect
“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
( then eve is created )
….And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
Genesis 2:8, 15-17, 21-22, 25 KJV
awe don’t really know how long they were in the farsen some insist it was the very same day but I m not sure personally how long they were there.
It’s obvious eve was taught the commandment most likely by Adam or possibly the lord could be either maybe she was just created knowing but genesis Leaves a lot of details out so it’s sort of connecting dots and opinions really .
She definately knew and I think of you have a deadly fruit it’s a good call to not even touch it . They should have added “ don’t even look at it “ and definetely no listening to lying snakes who contradict Gods word
I think beguiled probably is a better term there than deceived
“ To charm or enchant (someone), sometimes in a deceptive way.”
think of the setting they had no reason to think the fruit wouldnt harm them but would make them as gods until the serpent said it to them
All the sudden knowing if they eat the fruit they’ll die , the serpent decides to work to tempt and charm them “ ahh shucks it’s not gonna hurt you , god just doesn’t want you to have it , it’s actually going to make you like gods and you’ll be wise and know good and evil “
I’d say it was definately a deception in a very subtle and crafty way he sort of charmed his way to his end game of getting them to eat the fruit . A lie but a subtle and seemingly simple one not even really rebellious if it’s framed right ect ect
He pur it into her mind , she then spread it to her husband is my guess
Its really present a lot in scriptire that God blames the serpent or Satan alot for mans downfalls and struggles ect
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I like what you said here a lot
“What if the deception was not simply the serpent's lie but a combination of that and Adam's own struggle with the temptation of not eating. I can imagine Adam saying to Eve something like "The Lord told us not to eat it so just stay right away from the tree Eve, don't touch it or even so much as look at it.”
it seems likely also “ somehow they already knew it was pleasant to look upon “
imagine having freedom to eat of all the fruits but for one and it’s about some form of knowledge you srent supposed to have ……and every day you work in the garden near the fruit tasting all of them and noticing how good that one looks how tasty and how it smells so sweet ect
Imagine if like you’re saying it’s already a problematic temptation but you haven’t yet eaten …..now comes the suggestion “ it won’t harm you it will make you to know good and evil and you’ll be as gods ….
not gonna taken it a nudge if your already leaning off a cliff
“What if the deception was not simply the serpent's lie but a combination of that and Adam's own struggle with the temptation of not eating. I can imagine Adam saying to Eve something like "The Lord told us not to eat it so just stay right away from the tree Eve, don't touch it or even so much as look at it.”
it seems likely also “ somehow they already knew it was pleasant to look upon “
imagine having freedom to eat of all the fruits but for one and it’s about some form of knowledge you srent supposed to have ……and every day you work in the garden near the fruit tasting all of them and noticing how good that one looks how tasty and how it smells so sweet ect
Imagine if like you’re saying it’s already a problematic temptation but you haven’t yet eaten …..now comes the suggestion “ it won’t harm you it will make you to know good and evil and you’ll be as gods ….
not gonna taken it a nudge if your already leaning off a cliff
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Precious friends, an Interesting thing just happened in my life - reading these
posts for the last 2 days, and concurrently reading Holy Scriptures, I came across
Ezra 7:12-13, 16 and 8:28 AV:
You and I both, especially THE Personal Substitutionary Atonement,
By God Himself, For "me, a worm", eh? I just love A Good Bible study,
don't you?
Amen.
posts for the last 2 days, and concurrently reading Holy Scriptures, I came across
Ezra 7:12-13, 16 and 8:28 AV:
"Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God
of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time. I make a decree, that all they
of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which
are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."
+
"And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon,
with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly
for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:"
+
"And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and
the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers."
Q: Just wonderin' - if freewill "doesn't exist", why in the world wouldit be "In The [ God-Inspired ] Bible", and 17 times For Emphasis?
You and I both, especially THE Personal Substitutionary Atonement,
By God Himself, For "me, a worm", eh? I just love A Good Bible study,
don't you?
Amen.
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Free will as it is discussed in these Christian forums has much more to do with whether or not the natural man with his stony heart and hostile to God mind > as a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, being taken captive to the will of the devil, as the whole world is under the influence of the evil one >>> you know that evil one??? Yes, him... the discussion has to do with whether people with that stony heart (with the heart one believes) and hostile to God mind are capable of choosing to love God without God enabling them first... that is, making them alive in Christ and circumcising their heart... it has nothing to do with whether or not you choose to give money to the church or what socks you decide to wear or what you want to have for lunch or whether or not to tip the waitress etc et cetera etc ad nauseum. The many pelagians here say yes a corrupt tree can produce good fruit even though Jesus says that is not possible. And of course there are other places in Scripture where it is made plain that it is according to God's will and desire and not the will or desire or effort of man.
You're close but then you're still trying to hold to the error of freewill and have it be some sort of reward when it is no reward, but rather it's the scam to make them commit errors to their own detriment. Do you think when a father has children he knows his children will grow up and bring him heartache in the future but he begets them anyways? Though you make probably one of the best cases in my opinion that I have seen so far the main error at the heart of it is thinking there is some way for man to influence and manipulate God. God is unassailable so there is no forcing a reaction from him or bending him to your will. Even by trying all you can really do is mess yourself up.
Funny enough, almost as if it were meant to be, I was just reading this portion of Jeremiah and considering it last night before bed, perhaps you will find interest in considering it also:
Jeremiah 7:19
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Funny enough, almost as if it were meant to be, I was just reading this portion of Jeremiah and considering it last night before bed, perhaps you will find interest in considering it also:
Jeremiah 7:19
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Such misunderstanding is common Pemican, didn't want to discuss my view yet but think it's necessary as others are likely to misunderstand too.
Think about it, how can we say we have free will, when we must accommodate the needs of others and their choices too? It's actually impossible but what we do have is agency, we can make some choices and influence other decisions and events.
Personally think the only being who really has free will is the LORD and i say Amen to that.
Think about it, how can we say we have free will, when we must accommodate the needs of others and their choices too? It's actually impossible but what we do have is agency, we can make some choices and influence other decisions and events.
Personally think the only being who really has free will is the LORD and i say Amen to that.
Matthew 4;1
Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil.