Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

John 5:24-25 ~ Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[studier]

But the intellect is a faculty that resides in the heart! Since the entire heart of man is depraved (i.e. all four of its faculties), then God must act upon the entire heart, which is precisely what he promised to do in his New Covenant. He didn't promise Israel that he would put just a new mind in them, but rather a new heart so that all the faculties therein will operate in sync to produce godly choices.

Different views on when the new heart is given. Different views on depravity.

 

[studier]

Nope. The text says that God opened her heart. That means he touched her mind, affections, conscience and volition! This is a great example of God making good on his NC promise:

Ezek 36:26
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
NIV

And since Lydia responded just as God purposed, then I can only conclude that his action upon her heart was efficacious.

That's why I pointed you to prosechō in Acts16:14. It doesn't say the Lord gave her a new heart to understand. It doesn't even say the Lord opened her heart to understand. It says the Lord opened her heart to prosechō the speakings by Paul.

Excerpting but will provide all if requested re: prosechō:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] προσέχω

In non-biblical wr. the prim. mng. ‘have in close proximity to’; freq. act. as mostly in our lit. of mental processes ‘turn one’s mind to’

1. to be in a state of alert, be concerned about, care for, take care
2. to pay close attention to someth., pay attention to, give heed to, follow
3. to continue in close attention to someth., occupy oneself with, devote or apply oneself to

 

[rogerg]

Explain that God wrote the Bible?

Or explain the difference between choice and yielding?

This is what I wrote about that you quoted.

Did you forget already? You stated:
" Look at my post and your response. You clearly didn't even understand what I wrote but you want me to think you understand the Bible?

Aren't You just precious!
Bless Your Heart! "

So, I asked you to explain what it is that I didn't understand about "what I wrote" - making that claim was easy, substantiating it, not so much.

So, what is it?

 

[Magenta]

Different views on when the new heart is given. Different views on depravity.

Scripture presents a unified view of there are none good. Too funny to be told (as I have been) that such
a universal axiom can be taken out of context, as if does not apply to some/any (besides Jesus, that is).

This unified view is echoed again and again throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.

Given everything that is said of the natural man it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to just decide to believe.

Actually laughable that any would assert such a thing. And there are many here who do.

What Scripture actually teaches is that the natural man, prior to regeneration and heart circumcision, cannot simply decide, through the exercising of his will, to believe that which is foolishness to him with his hostile-to-God mind while captive to the will of the devil, a slave to sin, lover of darkness, incapable of receiving or understanding spiritual things of God, suppressing the truth in unrighteous, while in the flesh alone which profits nothing. Many here ascribe to the natural man qualities and abilities only the spiritual man possesses, and they actually pretty much ignore the fact that there is a marked difference between the two of them. A corrupt tree (the natural man) cannot bring forth the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his heart by "making a moral decision," as some say.

 

[Rufus]

Different views on when the new heart is given. Different views on depravity.

Well...the sons and daughters of Adam certainly don't come into this world as haloed saints, so that's something to be said for their depravity. And the new heart is intimately connected to the Land to which the exiles would soon be returning. In fact the prophesy is given to the "land" (Ezek 36:1-7).

 

[Rufus]

Scripture presents a unified view of there are none good. Too funny to be told (as I have been) that such
a universal axiom can be taken out of context, as if does not apply to some/any (besides Jesus, that is).

This unified view is echoed again and again throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.

Given everything that is said of the natural man it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to just decide to believe.

Actually laughable that any would assert such a thing. And there are many here who do.

What Scripture actually teaches is that the natural man, prior to regeneration and heart circumcision, cannot simply decide, through the exercising of his will, to believe that which is foolishness to him with his hostile-to-God mind while captive to the will of the devil, a slave to sin, lover of darkness, incapable of receiving or understanding spiritual things of God, suppressing the truth in unrighteous, while in the flesh alone which profits nothing. Many here ascribe to the natural man qualities and abilities only the spiritual man possesses, and they actually pretty much ignore the fact that there is a marked difference between the two of them. A corrupt tree (the natural man) cannot bring forth the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his heart by "making a moral decision," as some say.

Nor by mere moral suasion from the Word of God. It also takes the effectual work of the Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

Nor by mere moral suasion from the Word of God. It also takes the effectual work of the Spirit.

Yes. Scripture explicitly says it is not by the will or desire or effort of man but by the will, desire, and mercy of God. Period.

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[Rufus]

Another very interesting nuance in the Bread of Life discourse is found in 6:37 wherein Jesus promised that all that the Father gives him he would never drive away. The Gr. term "ekballo" (Strong's 1544) is a strong word that denotes driving away, or casting out or expelling. It's often used in the NT in conjunction with God's enemies such as when Jesus or his apostles cast out demons. Or Jesus cast out the money changers in the temple. In fact, in the OT the more or less equivalent Hebrew term also pertains quite often to God's enemies or Israel's enemies -- or even Adam when he was driven out of the Garden.

The fact that Jesus uses this term in v. 37 is just more strong evidence that those who the Father gives to the Son are slated and destined to be reconciled to the Father through the Son; therefore, the Son will never drive away those who are destined to become his friends. Would Jesus ever receive and approve of God's enemies?

 

[studier]

Well...the sons and daughters of Adam certainly don't come into this world as haloed saints, so that's something to be said for their depravity. And the new heart is intimately connected to the Land to which the exiles would soon be returning. In fact the prophesy is given to the "land" (Ezek 36:1-7).

It's this type of rhetorical hyperbole that makes it difficult to take you seriously. No one that I recall reading suggests that unbelievers are "haloed saints" or we who believe are better than anybody else.

Even the unbelieving Greeks were able to theorize there was an unidentifiable Logos in the universe. Your tradition in a sense lessens the power of the living Logos to provide the power necessary for the human mind to hear and learn - to save - but in essence that's precisely what is taking place according to 1Cor1 that we were discussing. The Gospel - the Word - is the instrument God uses to save. And God has His Holy Ones proclaiming this powerful Logos/Word/Message to unbelievers, and He has His Spirit convincing unbelieving men of certain issues.

 

[rogerg]

Nor by mere moral suasion from the Word of God. It also takes the effectual work of the Spirit.

I believe that was meant by "That the man of God may be..." of 2 Ti 3:17 - that being identified in the verse as the "man of God', they already had become saved, born-again, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and by the Holy Spirit, along with scripture, become perfect (complete), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[studier]

Another very interesting nuance in the Bread of Life discourse is found in 6:37 wherein Jesus promised that all that the Father gives him he would never drive away. The Gr. term "ekballo" (Strong's 1544) is a strong word that denotes driving away, or casting out or expelling. It's often used in the NT in conjunction with God's enemies such as when Jesus or his apostles cast out demons. Or Jesus cast out the money changers in the temple. In fact, in the OT the more or less equivalent Hebrew term also pertains quite often to God's enemies or Israel's enemies -- or even Adam when he was driven out of the Garden.

The fact that Jesus uses this term in v. 37 is just more strong evidence that those who the Father gives to the Son are slated and destined to be reconciled to the Father through the Son; therefore, the Son will never drive away those who are destined to become his friends. Would Jesus ever receive and approve of God's enemies?

Then again. John6:37b tied to 6:40 places the condition on [Jewish] men (when Jesus was on the earth) who come to Jesus that they must see + believe into Jesus and you haven't proven to some of us that come = believe. Nor have you proven or explained how 6:37a (neuter) and 6:37b (masculine) may equate to or overlap one another.

Also, will every man who comes to Jesus become Jesus' friends? Have you ever searched and studied what's involved in being a friend of the Lord, or of God? Similarly, and related, have you established what requirements Jesus places on being a true disciple of His?

 

[lrs68]

Did you forget already? You stated:
" Look at my post and your response. You clearly didn't even understand what I wrote but you want me to think you understand the Bible?

Aren't You just precious!
Bless Your Heart! "

So, I asked you to explain what it is that I didn't understand about "what I wrote" - making that claim was easy, substantiating it, not so much.

So, what is it?

The Scripture you used explains God wrote the scriptures but you used it as proof for your position in this conversation. Nowhere does that specific Scripture indicate understanding.

Now, I for mentioned Sola Scripture.
You responded with Scripture explaining God wrote the Bible.
There's no connection anywhere in those verses about understanding.

So would you please tell me how your verses connect to Sola Scripture because those verses are about God writing Scriptures and not about understanding (which is what Sola Scripture claims to be able to do)?

 

[Rufus]

It's this type of rhetorical hyperbole that makes it difficult to take you seriously. No one that I recall reading suggests that unbelievers are "haloed saints" or we who believe are better than anybody else.

Even the unbelieving Greeks were able to theorize there was an unidentifiable Logos in the universe. Your tradition in a sense lessens the power of the living Logos to provide the power necessary for the human mind to hear and learn - to save - but in essence that's precisely what is taking place according to 1Cor1 that we were discussing. The Gospel - the Word - is the instrument God uses to save. And God has His Holy Ones proclaiming this powerful Logos/Word/Message to unbelievers, and He has His Spirit convincing unbelieving men of certain issues.

Wow! You give me far too much credit when you tell me that this mere fallible, finite being can actually lessen the power of Christ! Just goes to show everyone, though, just how much you overrate the power of people.

And there's nothing hyperbolic about what I said about how people come into this world. We all came into it dead, helpless and powerless in our sins. If this weren't true, there would be no reason for Paul to tell us that God's people have been rescued from the kingdom of darkness.

 

[rogerg]

The Scripture you used explains God wrote the scriptures but you used it as proof for your position in this conversation. Nowhere does that specific Scripture indicate understanding.

Yes, it does. Do you understand what "thoroughly furnished" means? Unless one has received understanding, they cannot be perfect (completed) - thoroughly furnished - furnished with spiritual understanding "unto ALL good works" of salvation. Not only are they "furnished" with spiritual understanding, but they are "thoroughly furnished" with spiritual understanding. It was used in conjunction with the "man of God". The man of God is one already saved and having been given the Holy Spirit. It does not apply to everyone but only to those of the elect, already saved. Those not of the elect, will never be furnished with an understanding of spiritual truth.

[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Now, I for mentioned Sola Scripture.
You responded with Scripture explaining God wrote the Bible.
There's no connection anywhere in those verses about understanding.

See my reply above.

So would you please tell me how your verses connect to Sola Scripture because those verses are about God writing Scriptures and not about understanding (which is what Sola Scripture claims to be able to do)?

Again, see my reply regarding "thoroughly furnished" above.

 

[studier]

Wow! You give me far too much credit when you tell me that this mere fallible, finite being can actually lessen the power of Christ! Just goes to show everyone, though, just how much you overrate the power of people.

And there's nothing hyperbolic about what I said about how people come into this world. We all came into it dead, helpless and powerless in our sins. If this weren't true, there would be no reason for Paul to tell us that God's people have been rescued from the kingdom of darkness.

Sure...

 

[Rufus]

Then again. John6:37b tied to 6:40 places the condition on [Jewish] men (when Jesus was on the earth) who come to Jesus that they must see + believe into Jesus and you haven't proven to some of us that come = believe. Nor have you proven or explained how 6:37a (neuter) and 6:37b (masculine) may equate to or overlap one another.

Also, will every man who comes to Jesus become Jesus' friends? Have you ever searched and studied what's involved in being a friend of the Lord, or of God? Similarly, and related, have you established what requirements Jesus places on being a true disciple of His?

So, true believers are enemies are God? You wanna know "what's involved in being a friend of the Lord or of God"? You could start with Heb 11:6 and Rom 8:8. Do you think Jesus considered the repentant thief on the cross to be his enemy when he promised him that that very day he would be with Jesus in paradise?

Jn 6:37 is crystal clear, no matter how you wish to twist and distort the plain meaning of the words with clever word salads or feats of mental gymnastics with other verses in the passage. WHOEVER comes to me, I will NEVER drive away! Not only will he never drive them away, but he will never lose any. And not only will he never lose any, but he will raise them up to life on the last day.

Now, give me one instance in the bible where Jesus or any of his apostles ever drove away believers.

I know you desperately want to turn John 6 on its head and make it say that God gives each and every person to Jesus and draws each and every person to Jesus, but to do that would be at your own peril due to the serious theological implications such a foolhardy interpretation would engender.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, it does. Do you understand what "thoroughly furnished" means? Unless one has received understanding, they cannot be perfect (completed) - thoroughly furnished - furnished with spiritual understanding "unto ALL good works" of salvation. Not only are they "furnished" with spiritual understanding, but they are "thoroughly furnished" with spiritual understanding. It was used in conjunction with the "man of God". The man of God is one already saved and having been given the Holy Spirit. It does not apply to everyone but only to those of the elect, already saved. Those not of the elect, will never be furnished with an understanding of spiritual truth.

[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.



See my reply above.



Again, see my reply regarding "thoroughly furnished" above.

Going off the original verses you used thoroughly furnished means we have everything God intended us to have from a written account. It however does not mean nor implies complete understanding.

That is your mistake.

 

[Kroogz]

So, true believers are enemies are God?

Many are. When their mission is to convince other believers that unbelievers cannot make a choice for His Gospel to them And puts a cherry on top with trying to convince unbelievers they can't make a choice for Him.......That is the epitome of an enemy of God.