The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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Just as faith may not accept grace at conversion, it may not will to walk.
(Note that faith and volition are essentially synonymous.)
I suspect that rewards in heaven derive from spiritual maturity on earth.
Joy in heaven may be be proportionate with suffering for Christ on earth,
just as an artist may appreciate paintings more than someone inexperienced in art.
(Note that faith and volition are essentially synonymous.)
I suspect that rewards in heaven derive from spiritual maturity on earth.
Joy in heaven may be be proportionate with suffering for Christ on earth,
just as an artist may appreciate paintings more than someone inexperienced in art.
We should hope that is because everyone's overall belief is in the Gospel.
Thus, disagreements are about secondary doctrines, such as OSAS.
I agree that seeing someone change their mind is rare,
but I have amended some views, usually thanking the person.
I have not kept count, but I guess I have made about 20 changes
to my website because of CC discussions since joining in October.
Thus, disagreements are about secondary doctrines, such as OSAS.
I agree that seeing someone change their mind is rare,
but I have amended some views, usually thanking the person.
I have not kept count, but I guess I have made about 20 changes
to my website because of CC discussions since joining in October.
Good to know. I have seen you acknowledge this. You were included in my last sentence.
We should hope is right. Honestly, all the work and studying I've done has led me back to the Foundation - Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to whom all knees shall bow so do His will as best I understand it and do more of it and become better at it as He makes it known to me. IOW keep 1Cor3 (the only foundation) at heart and Phil2:12-13 on continuous loop. Many other associated verses also, but this is the basic...Obedience is the core. Faith is virtually synonymous so also the core. Faith-Obedience - Paul's mission to the nations.
We should hope is right. Honestly, all the work and studying I've done has led me back to the Foundation - Jesus is the Christ the Son of God to whom all knees shall bow so do His will as best I understand it and do more of it and become better at it as He makes it known to me. IOW keep 1Cor3 (the only foundation) at heart and Phil2:12-13 on continuous loop. Many other associated verses also, but this is the basic...Obedience is the core. Faith is virtually synonymous so also the core. Faith-Obedience - Paul's mission to the nations.
We are both catching up, at least I have never considered this nuance, but now that you mention it, I guess not believing during the walk would be a sin, which is possible since saints are not perfect.
Re "Obedience is the core. Faith is virtually synonymous so also the core. Faith-Obedience - Paul's mission to the nations.": Yes, and perhaps you helped me realize that--what I call my recent insight? (My memory is hit and miss :^)
Re "Obedience is the core. Faith is virtually synonymous so also the core. Faith-Obedience - Paul's mission to the nations.": Yes, and perhaps you helped me realize that--what I call my recent insight? (My memory is hit and miss :^)
Everything that is not part of the key kerygma:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per MT 7:1&5, 2CR 13:5-8).
A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (EPH 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. JN 17:20-23, “May they be one…”).
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God's justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Well, that is true of those in the fourth category below:
No one achieves moral perfection in this life, but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (GL 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:
a. a saint and normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word but is on the way to finding (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21, 1JN 2:19), who may claim to believe in Christ and imitate morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
No one achieves moral perfection in this life, but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (GL 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:
a. a saint and normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word but is on the way to finding (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21, 1JN 2:19), who may claim to believe in Christ and imitate morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
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@GWH, I’ll admit it’s possible in 1 John 2:19 that they may have never been saved, but I’m very hesitant to say that. Even if it meant that, it refers to the antichrists. Just because 1 John 2.19 might be referring to people who never became Christians, does not mean that all Christians who fall away were never saved.
If someone is sitting on a chair, logic tells us that we cannot fall off the chair if we were never on it in the first place. Whenever a believer falls away, our OSAS friends will typically fall back on they were never truly saved to begin with. This is the standard answer to explain away the bitter pill of reality that they don’t want to swallow.
I believe these people who became antichrists had been Christians, but went into apostasy, hence becoming antichrists. We can say they would fall in the Luke 8:13 or Heb. 3:12 category.
My view is they went out of the body of Christ. The fellowship of believers. In order to go out of something you would first have to be in it. It can be said they did not continue in the faith (Col. 1:23), and as the result it was made manifest that none of them were of the faith anymore. They were not of the faith at that point in time of their departure and were not of the faith when they departed.
A person can be a devoted patriot one day, then turn traitorous, and cease to be one of the nation's devoted supporters. A person can be a faithful Christian, change, go out from among the people of God because he is no longer of the people of God as he was earlier.
At one time, when people who were a follower of Christ departs, they are not of us anymore in what they believe or practice, and since their departure it has been made manifest by their teaching. Sadly, time has lapsed and many people are no longer joined to the doctrine of Christ in what they teach or believe. As the result of that, it can no longer be said that they belong to us, as they have left the teachings of Christ, and to leave the teachings of Christ would also be to leave Christ. In short, they have left the Savior who we are enjoined/connected to.
In Acts 15:24, the text says “Since we have heard that some who went out from us”
Very similar to 1 John 2:19. They went out from us. Once again I’ll admit it’s possible in that they may have never been believers, but just like the antichrist, I believe these people who went out from us had been members of the Lord's church, but left to go back to Judaism, the law of Moses, hence becoming Judaizers.
I believe we can apply the same instance to these antichrists that John writes about in 1 John 2:19.
If someone is sitting on a chair, logic tells us that we cannot fall off the chair if we were never on it in the first place. Whenever a believer falls away, our OSAS friends will typically fall back on they were never truly saved to begin with. This is the standard answer to explain away the bitter pill of reality that they don’t want to swallow.
I believe these people who became antichrists had been Christians, but went into apostasy, hence becoming antichrists. We can say they would fall in the Luke 8:13 or Heb. 3:12 category.
My view is they went out of the body of Christ. The fellowship of believers. In order to go out of something you would first have to be in it. It can be said they did not continue in the faith (Col. 1:23), and as the result it was made manifest that none of them were of the faith anymore. They were not of the faith at that point in time of their departure and were not of the faith when they departed.
A person can be a devoted patriot one day, then turn traitorous, and cease to be one of the nation's devoted supporters. A person can be a faithful Christian, change, go out from among the people of God because he is no longer of the people of God as he was earlier.
At one time, when people who were a follower of Christ departs, they are not of us anymore in what they believe or practice, and since their departure it has been made manifest by their teaching. Sadly, time has lapsed and many people are no longer joined to the doctrine of Christ in what they teach or believe. As the result of that, it can no longer be said that they belong to us, as they have left the teachings of Christ, and to leave the teachings of Christ would also be to leave Christ. In short, they have left the Savior who we are enjoined/connected to.
In Acts 15:24, the text says “Since we have heard that some who went out from us”
Very similar to 1 John 2:19. They went out from us. Once again I’ll admit it’s possible in that they may have never been believers, but just like the antichrist, I believe these people who went out from us had been members of the Lord's church, but left to go back to Judaism, the law of Moses, hence becoming Judaizers.
I believe we can apply the same instance to these antichrists that John writes about in 1 John 2:19.
You are right, so let me see how to amend the 4th category:
d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21, 1JN 2:19), who may claim to believe in Christ and imitate morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
Hmm, I had added the 1JN 2:19 reference just before posting to you, but I think we should add a fifth category:
e. an apostate Christian (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20).
Good catch! I will amend my website.
d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21, 1JN 2:19), who may claim to believe in Christ and imitate morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
Hmm, I had added the 1JN 2:19 reference just before posting to you, but I think we should add a fifth category:
e. an apostate Christian (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20).
Good catch! I will amend my website.
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what do we do?
When we abide, we produce fruit. We walk with God. We talk with God.
But it is not us who keeps us in christ for salvation. for as the good word says,
Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Do you not realise that YOU are a created thing. You are things present. You have a future (things to come) and that even you can not seperate yourself from the love of God?
Again, why are people so focused on self and not focused on God. who keeps us.
When we abide, we produce fruit. We walk with God. We talk with God.
But it is not us who keeps us in christ for salvation. for as the good word says,
Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Do you not realise that YOU are a created thing. You are things present. You have a future (things to come) and that even you can not seperate yourself from the love of God?
Again, why are people so focused on self and not focused on God. who keeps us.
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The issue is you believe we must do something to remain saved.
The word says there is nothing we can do to be saved, let alone stay saved. so it is a misnomer to try to use any argument that work must be done to maintain salvation, even if it is a work to remain faithful.
God keeps us, we do not keep ourselves. we do not have that power.
The point still stands.
a person who claimed to be a part of the church, who claimed to have faith. who left the church and now reject christ (have rejected faith) was never a part of us. they were never saved. period.
they did nto repudiate faith. They never had it.
no more than those who claimed to have faith but had no works. Their faith was just as dead. proven by the fact they were hearers only not doers..
The word says there is nothing we can do to be saved, let alone stay saved. so it is a misnomer to try to use any argument that work must be done to maintain salvation, even if it is a work to remain faithful.
God keeps us, we do not keep ourselves. we do not have that power.
The point still stands.
a person who claimed to be a part of the church, who claimed to have faith. who left the church and now reject christ (have rejected faith) was never a part of us. they were never saved. period.
they did nto repudiate faith. They never had it.
no more than those who claimed to have faith but had no works. Their faith was just as dead. proven by the fact they were hearers only not doers..
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Was it PThompson that elaborated on Hebrew 7:25 of a continual "coming" in the context of turning to Jesus' living forever established with a permanent priesthood? I'm not well versed in verb tenses to recognize any of them other than the basic of them, i.e. past present future, by sight, but I do notice that both "to save" and "intercede" are both present infinitive active, and "draw near" is present participle which can be used to indicate ongoing actions.
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.
I'm thinking of the Lord asking Peter, "why did you doubt?" after Peter cried out to Him, "Lord! Save me!" and so I wonder if I see it right that central argument in this the debate is not about whether the Lord would save those who cry out to Him but whether there is a possibility that Peter might come to a point of such discouragement that he fails to cry out anymore?
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.
I'm thinking of the Lord asking Peter, "why did you doubt?" after Peter cried out to Him, "Lord! Save me!" and so I wonder if I see it right that central argument in this the debate is not about whether the Lord would save those who cry out to Him but whether there is a possibility that Peter might come to a point of such discouragement that he fails to cry out anymore?
It does seem peculiar to me that Jesus would ask Peter, "why did you doubt" if it He was aware that Peter could neither believe nor unbelieve except that God gave Him the belief.
However, I can fully get behind such a statement with the inserted qualifier, "Peter could neither believe (completely) without God's help (and there is never a time that Peter wouldn't need God's help believing).
However, I can fully get behind such a statement with the inserted qualifier, "Peter could neither believe (completely) without God's help (and there is never a time that Peter wouldn't need God's help believing).
actually there is a difference.
one trusts God in what he says about us (we are sinners. lost and without hope. and dead to God separated from him because of our sin, and we must be born of God. We have faith that What God says about us is true. we are dead.
We also trust him when he says he died for us. and took our sin debt on his body. that if we trust him, he will give us the gift of life. And we trust him in what he says about this life.(this is called justification)
the second faith is learning to trust God in different areas of our life. its called christian growth or sanctification.
one trusts God in what he says about us (we are sinners. lost and without hope. and dead to God separated from him because of our sin, and we must be born of God. We have faith that What God says about us is true. we are dead.
We also trust him when he says he died for us. and took our sin debt on his body. that if we trust him, he will give us the gift of life. And we trust him in what he says about this life.(this is called justification)
the second faith is learning to trust God in different areas of our life. its called christian growth or sanctification.