Is Open Theism Heresy?
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His plan is very good.
do you believe He did not grieve the death of the Son before He created the world?
but Hebrews tells us, it was also for the joy set before Him, He endured this - as i put, His plan is good.
Salvation in Christ is not something to mourn over, as the open theist describes it: a failure of God, a retreat to a piteous secondary position after having His main forces wiped put by Satan's victory.
the gospel is absolute triumph, establishing forever the vanity of sin and the primacy of God's glorious mercy
do you believe He did not grieve the death of the Son before He created the world?
but Hebrews tells us, it was also for the joy set before Him, He endured this - as i put, His plan is good.
Salvation in Christ is not something to mourn over, as the open theist describes it: a failure of God, a retreat to a piteous secondary position after having His main forces wiped put by Satan's victory.
the gospel is absolute triumph, establishing forever the vanity of sin and the primacy of God's glorious mercy
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- open theism:
- anything could still happen, God is fundamentally ignorant and has no idea, Satan can still win
- ((eternal doubt and hopelessness))
- actual Christianity:
- God from everlasting unquestionably has all glory, and purposed the human condition to show the riches of His grace to us
- ((eternally secure hope))
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I agree…that’s pretty much my understanding as well.
I think Ephesians 3:11 also provides support: “According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord”
I believe the eternal purpose which God purposed in Christ Jesus to be salvation (Acts 4:12), and that the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs and of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel" (v.6).
The "us" in Eph. 1 verse 3 says he blessed "us" with all spiritual blessings "in heavenly places." Who are the "us" in verse three? It refers back to the "saints which are at Ephesus" (and Paul) in verse one. To Christians in general, to the church. This does not say He predestinated someone like Bob or Sally, nor does it say He predestined that Joe would respond or Mo would not respond to the gospel call.
So, what did He predestinate? He hath chosen "us (Christians) "in Him" (v.4). See v. 10: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of time He might gather together in one all things in Christ." Gather together "in Christ."
So this is not a reference to God predestinating certain individuals to salvation, but rather the means and location by which all men can be saved, that is, in Christ.
This would coincide with what you are saying concerning Ephesians 1:4-5.
He chose the Person who would save us and the location of the saved. And that Person and location is in Christ and His church/body/kingdom (Ephesians 5:23, Col. 1:13).
If Jesus and His church is the chosen and predestinated in those verses, then I believe the gospel and the plan of salvation would also have been the chosen/predestinated, because Jesus brought us the gospel of Christ, God’s power unto salvation (2 Tim. 1:8-10; Rom. 1:16).
God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers. He determined to make that body His elect…but it does not say that He limited the membership of that body to a specific number, the way Calvinists teach and believe. Each of us can choose to be a part of the elect by obeying the plan of salvation and remaining faithful until death.
The Father “chose” — the body of Christ, the church as a whole, not the individuals. He chose and predestinated how the church would be and what it would be: In Him, in Christ, Holiness, blameless before God in love, and “predestinated” the church unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph. 1:3-4)
2) The Son (Jesus) “redeemed” — those that are in Christ, by His blood (Eph. 1:7; cf. 1 Peter 1:18-19)
3) The Spirit “seals” — with salvation in Christ and the promise of having an inheritance of eternity in Heaven thru faithful living. When we are sealed by having salvation in Christ that is how we are sealed with God’s mark of ownership. (Eph. 1:13)
Here are two analogies I found or was told online a while back while I was studying on those passages. The first one is on Ephesians 1:13-14.
A famous department store advertises its plan for giving away $1,000. A certificate appears in the newspaper stating that on the following Monday they would sound a trumpet at a particular moment of the management’s choosing, and all who were in the store who also possessed a copy of the certificate would be given $1,000. The certificate would serve as the store’s assurance (earnest) this plan would be fulfilled.
What Would You do?
1. Having “heard” their offer, would you go? Having “believed” would you take the certificate with you and obey all the instructions? (cf. Eph. 1:13)
2. Would the $1,000 be earned by meritorious “works”? Or be given by “grace”? (cf. Eph. 2:8-10)
3. Was the plan chosen? Or were specific individuals “elected,” “predestinated,” or “chosen” by the management? In other words, did the individuals who collected the money receive it because they were specifically chosen before the conditions were advertised, or were they “the elect” who received the reward because they complied with the conditions (plan) which had been “chosen”? (cf., Eph. 1:3-14)
4. Would you have any right to claim the $1,000 if you did not follow the instructions? Even if you believed (mentally agreed with) the advertisement? (cf. Mark 16:16: John 12:42-43)
5. What if you went to the store with the certificate in hand but left before the trumpet sounded? Could you still claim the $1,000? (cf. Heb. 3:12-14)
The obvious answers to these questions should help us in understanding God’s scheme of redemption. He is sovereign. By grace He extends salvation to all men. Just as the store’s conditions of reward were predetermined and could not be altered by the public; likewise God has chosen the plan of salvation through Christ. However, God allows man to be a free moral agent, and whether we are saved or lost will be determined by our response of faith.
The second analogy is with regards to Romans 8:29-30
Illustration: A city hall plans to have a little league baseball program with a view to rewarding the kids who made all-stars with a special trip to meet the Atlanta Braves in their stadium in their locker room. They plan to build the little league ballpark and predestined that coaches, umpires, and interested kids would gather on March 4th to discuss the foreknown plans and choose teams. Those that truly loved baseball were going to enjoy good things. The games finally begin, and eventually the season ends, the all-stars of the teams chosen, and eventually they get to meet the Atlanta Braves. This little league team was foreknown and predestined by that city council years in advance. They didn’t foresee the exact individuals, but they foreknew such a team would form from the plan. Kind of like if a coach is planning a team, and he sends out a letter that all who wants to be on his team will come to the gymnasium in the town on a certain date. He wants all and has chose all to be on his team by sending out a letter, but not all will accept and choose. The ones that showed up to the gymnasium to be the team has chosen to be the team and He chooses them. He foreknew that He was going to form a team, foreknew that He would make such call, that some would answer the call. The team was foreknown, predestined, called, justified (given clean new uniforms), and glorified (cheered). The team that was given clean new uniforms would be when people are given a clean new start by having their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ and walk in a newness of life. Their clean and new uniform would be when they put on Christ, and when the team was cheered is when the church rejoices. He did not predestinate our individual response to the gospel because that would be a respecter of persons.
I think Ephesians 3:11 also provides support: “According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord”
I believe the eternal purpose which God purposed in Christ Jesus to be salvation (Acts 4:12), and that the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs and of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel" (v.6).
The "us" in Eph. 1 verse 3 says he blessed "us" with all spiritual blessings "in heavenly places." Who are the "us" in verse three? It refers back to the "saints which are at Ephesus" (and Paul) in verse one. To Christians in general, to the church. This does not say He predestinated someone like Bob or Sally, nor does it say He predestined that Joe would respond or Mo would not respond to the gospel call.
So, what did He predestinate? He hath chosen "us (Christians) "in Him" (v.4). See v. 10: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of time He might gather together in one all things in Christ." Gather together "in Christ."
So this is not a reference to God predestinating certain individuals to salvation, but rather the means and location by which all men can be saved, that is, in Christ.
This would coincide with what you are saying concerning Ephesians 1:4-5.
He chose the Person who would save us and the location of the saved. And that Person and location is in Christ and His church/body/kingdom (Ephesians 5:23, Col. 1:13).
If Jesus and His church is the chosen and predestinated in those verses, then I believe the gospel and the plan of salvation would also have been the chosen/predestinated, because Jesus brought us the gospel of Christ, God’s power unto salvation (2 Tim. 1:8-10; Rom. 1:16).
God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers. He determined to make that body His elect…but it does not say that He limited the membership of that body to a specific number, the way Calvinists teach and believe. Each of us can choose to be a part of the elect by obeying the plan of salvation and remaining faithful until death.
The Father “chose” — the body of Christ, the church as a whole, not the individuals. He chose and predestinated how the church would be and what it would be: In Him, in Christ, Holiness, blameless before God in love, and “predestinated” the church unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph. 1:3-4)
2) The Son (Jesus) “redeemed” — those that are in Christ, by His blood (Eph. 1:7; cf. 1 Peter 1:18-19)
3) The Spirit “seals” — with salvation in Christ and the promise of having an inheritance of eternity in Heaven thru faithful living. When we are sealed by having salvation in Christ that is how we are sealed with God’s mark of ownership. (Eph. 1:13)
Here are two analogies I found or was told online a while back while I was studying on those passages. The first one is on Ephesians 1:13-14.
A famous department store advertises its plan for giving away $1,000. A certificate appears in the newspaper stating that on the following Monday they would sound a trumpet at a particular moment of the management’s choosing, and all who were in the store who also possessed a copy of the certificate would be given $1,000. The certificate would serve as the store’s assurance (earnest) this plan would be fulfilled.
What Would You do?
1. Having “heard” their offer, would you go? Having “believed” would you take the certificate with you and obey all the instructions? (cf. Eph. 1:13)
2. Would the $1,000 be earned by meritorious “works”? Or be given by “grace”? (cf. Eph. 2:8-10)
3. Was the plan chosen? Or were specific individuals “elected,” “predestinated,” or “chosen” by the management? In other words, did the individuals who collected the money receive it because they were specifically chosen before the conditions were advertised, or were they “the elect” who received the reward because they complied with the conditions (plan) which had been “chosen”? (cf., Eph. 1:3-14)
4. Would you have any right to claim the $1,000 if you did not follow the instructions? Even if you believed (mentally agreed with) the advertisement? (cf. Mark 16:16: John 12:42-43)
5. What if you went to the store with the certificate in hand but left before the trumpet sounded? Could you still claim the $1,000? (cf. Heb. 3:12-14)
The obvious answers to these questions should help us in understanding God’s scheme of redemption. He is sovereign. By grace He extends salvation to all men. Just as the store’s conditions of reward were predetermined and could not be altered by the public; likewise God has chosen the plan of salvation through Christ. However, God allows man to be a free moral agent, and whether we are saved or lost will be determined by our response of faith.
The second analogy is with regards to Romans 8:29-30
Illustration: A city hall plans to have a little league baseball program with a view to rewarding the kids who made all-stars with a special trip to meet the Atlanta Braves in their stadium in their locker room. They plan to build the little league ballpark and predestined that coaches, umpires, and interested kids would gather on March 4th to discuss the foreknown plans and choose teams. Those that truly loved baseball were going to enjoy good things. The games finally begin, and eventually the season ends, the all-stars of the teams chosen, and eventually they get to meet the Atlanta Braves. This little league team was foreknown and predestined by that city council years in advance. They didn’t foresee the exact individuals, but they foreknew such a team would form from the plan. Kind of like if a coach is planning a team, and he sends out a letter that all who wants to be on his team will come to the gymnasium in the town on a certain date. He wants all and has chose all to be on his team by sending out a letter, but not all will accept and choose. The ones that showed up to the gymnasium to be the team has chosen to be the team and He chooses them. He foreknew that He was going to form a team, foreknew that He would make such call, that some would answer the call. The team was foreknown, predestined, called, justified (given clean new uniforms), and glorified (cheered). The team that was given clean new uniforms would be when people are given a clean new start by having their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ and walk in a newness of life. Their clean and new uniform would be when they put on Christ, and when the team was cheered is when the church rejoices. He did not predestinate our individual response to the gospel because that would be a respecter of persons.
Okay, but the question posed by the OP is whether this wrong belief is heresy.
Thus, answering that question necessitates explaining how Open Theism contradicts the Gospel/kerygma/creed or God's requirement for salvation, which is the basis for determining what is heretical or a perverted/different Gospel.
(Please continue :^)
Thus, answering that question necessitates explaining how Open Theism contradicts the Gospel/kerygma/creed or God's requirement for salvation, which is the basis for determining what is heretical or a perverted/different Gospel.
(Please continue :^)
Nope, you are wrong my brother. Open theism believes all things in scripture will come to pass, but the things that are not found in scripture are not necessarily knowledge, for God has given man free will to choose based upon personal experiences. Think about it. God is working in and through all the events and choices by man every single minute or every single day, to not only bring about his glory through man's choices, but also to bring about his desired end as stated in his word. That is almighty God!
see the definition our resident open theist gave:
open theism does not consider the future to exist, therefore claims God is ignorant of it, because they say, God only knows what can be known.
instead of prophecy being sure, it is subject to the completely unrestrained and unpredictable will of man.
Does God need to know what hippolectibles and grundigates are for him to be all-knowing? Is it really fair for you to call "not knowing what non-existent things are", ignorance?
It is not the case that for open theists "instead of prophecy being sure, it is subject to the completely unrestrained and unpredictable will of man."
For open theists, prophecy is subject to God's response to men's responses to His prophetic warnings about where things are heading if hearts do not change. We donot think prophecy is "subject to the completely unrestrained and unpredictable will of man."
It is not the case that for open theists "instead of prophecy being sure, it is subject to the completely unrestrained and unpredictable will of man."
For open theists, prophecy is subject to God's response to men's responses to His prophetic warnings about where things are heading if hearts do not change. We donot think prophecy is "subject to the completely unrestrained and unpredictable will of man."