The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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My question pertained to the claim of two gospels and endurance - comparing abiding with enduring.
What if we don't abide as commanded? Does God force us to abide - does He force us beyond a point to obey His command to abide?
Why are some so focused on God that they think no matter what they do all is well?
1. Re "The issue is you believe we must do something to remain saved.": Nothing different from what God requires for salvation (exercising moral free will/faith to accept His Grace per EPH 2:8), which is exercising faith/MFW to manifest His Spirit (per EPH 2:10 & GL 5:22).
2. Re "The word says there is nothing we can do to be saved, let alone stay saved.": You say the word but do not cite GW.
3. Re "so it is a misnomer to try to use any argument that work must be done to maintain salvation, even if it is a work to remain faithful.": Yes, that is true, and the insight I recently received: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
4. Re "God keeps us, we do not keep ourselves. we do not have that power.": God has the power to save and initiates by offering grace, but humans have MFW and are not robots, so we can choose to reject His love rather than to reflect the HS. Because God is all-loving, if He were going to determine the outcome, He would save everyone--but that is a misnomer.
5. Re "The point still stands": Point #3, 6 & 7 do, (which makes this point half right) and hopefully our faith will stand/persevere until the end.
6. Re "a person who claimed to be a part of the church, who claimed to have faith. who left the church and now reject christ (have rejected faith) was never a part of us. they were never saved. period. they did nto repudiate faith. They never had it.: That is possible and #e above: an apostate Christian (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20). (Glad we agree :^)
7. Re "no more than those who claimed to have faith but had no works. Their faith was just as dead. proven by the fact they were hearers only not doers.": Yes, in deed--doers of evil deeds.
(Happy now? :^)
2. Re "The word says there is nothing we can do to be saved, let alone stay saved.": You say the word but do not cite GW.
3. Re "so it is a misnomer to try to use any argument that work must be done to maintain salvation, even if it is a work to remain faithful.": Yes, that is true, and the insight I recently received: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
4. Re "God keeps us, we do not keep ourselves. we do not have that power.": God has the power to save and initiates by offering grace, but humans have MFW and are not robots, so we can choose to reject His love rather than to reflect the HS. Because God is all-loving, if He were going to determine the outcome, He would save everyone--but that is a misnomer.
5. Re "The point still stands": Point #3, 6 & 7 do, (which makes this point half right) and hopefully our faith will stand/persevere until the end.
6. Re "a person who claimed to be a part of the church, who claimed to have faith. who left the church and now reject christ (have rejected faith) was never a part of us. they were never saved. period. they did nto repudiate faith. They never had it.: That is possible and #e above: an apostate Christian (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20). (Glad we agree :^)
7. Re "no more than those who claimed to have faith but had no works. Their faith was just as dead. proven by the fact they were hearers only not doers.": Yes, in deed--doers of evil deeds.
(Happy now? :^)
This is because it's a simple truth and there is no way around it. If you can be saved in truth, spiritually reborn and reconciled to His Spirit, and then lose it due to not obeying well enough, then you are not saved you are on cosmic probation, if you can lose your salvation by your own actions then that means you HAVE to do the right things to keep it. This is works based. It's not people trying to falsely label what you believe, it's you not understanding your own arguments. You can no more throw away your salvation as you can save yourself. This is another perfect example of raising the power of men too high while denying the power of God too much.
The biggest "rub" of this conversation in my experience is what OSAS actually means. When we are saved we are spiritually resurrected by His grace and righteousness, just like being born as a baby this is something that takes place in reality. We are now spiritually resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to open our eyes and draw us ever closer to Him, and to guide us to all truth. We now have an ALL NEW nature and can now actually please God. This is His power and it keeps us, this is also how we can say "there is no good in me, anything you see in my good or right in me is by His power alone, and He gets ALL glory for ANY "good deed" I ever do, because I'd have never done them before He changed me". This is why and how none of us can boast. The fact people don't seem to get this argument make me wonder sometimes if they could have ever possibly seen and experienced the power He's shown me, because so many of their views and teachings do this, they raise man and lower His name claiming His due glory for themselves. (I don't believe they do this with malice or evil hearts, just misunderstanding) Examples- We don't get credit for our "choice" to choose Him, we also do not deserve credit for "keeping" our own salvation. He does that too.
What OSAS does not mean is "Okay I'm saved, now anything goes without any worry". I know this is how it's often painted by those who are so hard against it, but this is a straw man that I've never seen anyone on here argue for, and maybe only a couple wackos argue for at all, even on the internet. The center of this argument is Gods power not mans.
The biggest "rub" of this conversation in my experience is what OSAS actually means. When we are saved we are spiritually resurrected by His grace and righteousness, just like being born as a baby this is something that takes place in reality. We are now spiritually resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to open our eyes and draw us ever closer to Him, and to guide us to all truth. We now have an ALL NEW nature and can now actually please God. This is His power and it keeps us, this is also how we can say "there is no good in me, anything you see in my good or right in me is by His power alone, and He gets ALL glory for ANY "good deed" I ever do, because I'd have never done them before He changed me". This is why and how none of us can boast. The fact people don't seem to get this argument make me wonder sometimes if they could have ever possibly seen and experienced the power He's shown me, because so many of their views and teachings do this, they raise man and lower His name claiming His due glory for themselves. (I don't believe they do this with malice or evil hearts, just misunderstanding) Examples- We don't get credit for our "choice" to choose Him, we also do not deserve credit for "keeping" our own salvation. He does that too.
What OSAS does not mean is "Okay I'm saved, now anything goes without any worry". I know this is how it's often painted by those who are so hard against it, but this is a straw man that I've never seen anyone on here argue for, and maybe only a couple wackos argue for at all, even on the internet. The center of this argument is Gods power not mans.
Yes, that is why on my website the new insight is prefaced by this:
The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”
(Are we tired of agreement yet? :^)
The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”
(Are we tired of agreement yet? :^)
You're likely and sadly correct. For me having shed as much tradition as I've been able to do, it's simply about what the Word says and doesn't say. On my better days I don't consider traditions at all. Most of my days these days are better ones even when dealing with these threads. Let's just try to think for ourselves with Word in hand and in view.
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for it is by grace we have been saved (a completed action) through faith.
I was saved by grace, I recieved the grace gift in faith
Since I was not saved by faith. I can not lose salvation because I lack faith (even if we are faithless, he remains faithful)
You can;t persevere to the end. Gods requirment is perfection. You have falled short. you and I are falling short. and we will always fall short.
so what are we enduring? continuing to fall short?
enduring is what we do here on earth.. to recieve a reward.. Thos in the great tribulation who endure till christ returns will be saved physically
enduring is NEVER used on context of eternal salvation
I was saved by grace, I recieved the grace gift in faith
Since I was not saved by faith. I can not lose salvation because I lack faith (even if we are faithless, he remains faithful)
You can;t persevere to the end. Gods requirment is perfection. You have falled short. you and I are falling short. and we will always fall short.
so what are we enduring? continuing to fall short?
enduring is what we do here on earth.. to recieve a reward.. Thos in the great tribulation who endure till christ returns will be saved physically
enduring is NEVER used on context of eternal salvation
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Based upon doctrine we can know. Only a Spirit filled believer can know true doctrine.
I am 100% certain you are saved. And 100% certain of a few others.....All others I consider saved.
But I agree. The Loss of salvation crowd are a bunch of fruit inspectors....They have to be. And it always seems to be for everybody but themselves?
I am 100% certain you are saved. And 100% certain of a few others.....All others I consider saved.
But I agree. The Loss of salvation crowd are a bunch of fruit inspectors....They have to be. And it always seems to be for everybody but themselves?
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Simply the clearest doctrine in Scripture is our eternal security. Every verse needs to be read through that light. The loss of salvation crowd will PIT other verses(more ambiguous) against them.
1 Peter 1:23 KJV
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
1 Peter 1:23 KJV
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 5:24 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
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