The Rapture of the church, REAL or NOT REAL?

[Psalm1]

I remember the scriptures speaking highly of the Bereans and in churches, if you were a knowledgable person of the bible they would often say, "You are a good Berean."

Yes thank you.
I recieve that compliment regularly.
I pretty much live in God's Word.
I have the entire Bible on DVD.
It plays non stop .
At the end of Revelation it automatically goes to Genesis.
Never stops and fills my home with the fragrance of God's word.
Even I'm my sleep ot plays and I regularly have dreams alongside what is playing and entering my spirit

It is like a person is sitting in my house reading the Bible day and night for free.

I am definately a berean, pouring into the word as the Word pours into me.
Thanks for the compliment

BTW, It takes 3 days for the bible to complete reading with no breaks.

 

[Psalm1]

Yes, I understand how hard-hearted and hard-headed my fellow Israeli's can be within the Orthodox community. Please keep in mind that they are "blinded in part," not entirely, otherwise I would never have come over onto the side of Messianic Judaism...although I'm not hardline in that realm compared to many of my fellow Messianic Jews who still believe in the requirement for adhering to the Mosaic Law. I am not of that stripe.

What you encountered is the stiff-necked nature of Orthodoxy, which is near impossible to sway, just like most Muslims. Barring a visitation within dreams and/or in visions, Orthodox Jews and Muslims are very difficult to convert over to the side of Christ Jesus. Messiah is a Jewish designation. I do not see Jesus from that perspective. Son of man is also a Jewish-centric label that Gentile professors of Christ have illegitimately adopted. Messiah and son of man are terms that have everything to do with our roots and our alignment with Yahshuah as fellow Jews in relation to His earthly ministry. Paul never referred to Christ as Messiah to the Gentiles to whom he was sent, but I fully reside under his Gospel of Grace rather than the Kingdom Gospel. I am saved through the Gospel of Grace, not the Kingdom Gospel since the latter has passed away with the fall of Israel.

Hope that helps you with your understanding about my Orthodox brethren.

MM

MM

..which is the ONLY "2gospel" dynamic from heaven, or found in the Bible.
1) the gospel preached to the Jew is: "Messiah has come, the one we await has already come. And He died for your sins"
We give them Jesus.
2) to the Gentile we give them Jesus. They know nothing of Messiah.
We take them to the second Adam after they see their dilemma of "Holy God vs sinful man dilemma Via the dilemma in the first Adam"

To both we give them Jesus as ALL THE APOSTLES AND JESUS HIMSELF DID.

 

[Musicmaster]

Your warning reminds me of a rather comical thing that happened. I was at church in Wasilla, Alaska in the fellowship hall. It was after church and people had prepared food for all of us to enjoy and have fellowship after church.
As a backdrop to understanding why this is kind of funny, My family, I was raised in the Midwest around a LOT of hog farms. I knew absolutely NOTHING of any Jewish food laws. My family was all military vets. My father was a Navy Seal back during the 1960s and he was trained in part by Israeli Musod as well as ATF, FBI, and so on. One of my uncles was in Marine Recon in Vietnam while his brother my other uncle was U.S. Army Special Forces in Vietnam. So we had discipline but in a VERY different way than in church. I was raised in a military home. A family of warriors we were. So my spiritual experience really did not begin for me until later on in life. On my mother's side were all ENGLISH. On my father's side was Scottish, English and European Jewish. Yes I have some Jewish blood. German Jew or I think it is called Ashkenazi Jew. OK and so with that in mind, it sets the stage up for what happens at church. My friends and I would talk about our bloodlines and where each family stems from. It was my thing back then and is still a deep curiosity of mine. My friend is an EXPERT on the Hebrew language and is in fact JEWISH. OK so, he had gone around and dished out himself a plate of food. He say down as I went and started placing food items on my plate according to what I like. There was all different types of meats and cheeses as well as summer sausage. I was raised on summer sausage. So I placed a bit of it on my plate to enjoy. I walk over and sit down among my friend's family. As I am eating he notices the sausage and quietly informs me; "You should not be eating that.". I gave him a rather strange look as it hit me by surprise. "Excuse me, come again?". He smiled and said; "You should not be having that summer sausage, it's made out of pork.". I was confused so I asked him; "Why is this bad?". He smiled again and said; "You are a jew with Jew blood in you. Don't eat pork.". I scratched my head and then remembered what the Apostle Paul said in that if it causes a man to sin for you to eat meat then do not eat meat.". SO, I did not further partake of the summer sausage I like in order to honor and save the relationship. I looked over at him and said; "Oh I am sorry. I was never raised that way.". He said to me, "That's ok. I understand you are a Jew who does not know how to be Jewish.". I shrugged my shoulders and said; "Um I guess.". He told me that in Israel they would feel sorry for me because I genuinely do not know the ways." Of course being raised in a military family who served our country, we don't like sympathy too much. It's not offensive but just not something we seek after nor do we go around feeling sorry for ourselves as soldiers, sailers, and airmen. Me, I just thought that was kind of funny. All I ever knew about being a Jew was asking my father a few times if we were Scottish or English or what were we? His answer, "We are German Jews." and that was pretty much it entirely. No elaboration, no nothing. That's litterally all I knew except our German Jewish surname, "STARK", that means "Strong and Sturdy!" "men of strength and Gaul!". Which brought me relief because I feared it might be a Nazi name which I hate the Nazis!

I too am what some call a "mongrel mix." I hail from Irish Jews.

What your other uncle didn't understand, as you know, is that it is he and most of those Jews in Israel who don't understand the errors within their own adopted belief system. In Christ we have the expansiveness of not only the fulfillments through the Jewish Messiah, but also this dispensation of grace that Peter stated was too difficult for him to understand within the content of Paul's preaching. Being prone to error, this comes as no surprise to me, especially when Paul had to get in Peter's face about his hypocrisy. Peter should never have sat at table with the Gentiles either in the presence of the Jerusalem council members or not...thus at least sticking to his chosen path of faith and remaining under the Kingdom Gospel, which saves nobody today given that the Kingdom Gospel is on long since on hold for the time being.

It's horribly sad to me that so many continue the historic practice of trying to intermix the Kingdom Gospel elements with the Gospel of Grace. I attribute much of this phenomenon to the lack of critical thinking skills within public schools. The elite wanted a dumbed down culture willing to go along with whatever the glorified instruments of Satan teach them, and this is one of many results. They inject entire words and phraseology into verses and contexts where they clearly do not belong, thus corrupting the very word of God to us.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[GaryA]

If you would, please explain how there could possibly be a distinction to the extent that the Lord Himself, opening the seals with His own Hand to release the four horsemen upon the earth, killing one fourth of the entire world's population, is not His wrath.

So, please explain to us all how you drive that wedge of distinction for wrath between the vials and the seals and trumpets.

Perhaps, this may help...

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...the-modern-church.201091/page-48#post-4655208 (2021-09-20) :

Don't confuse 'Judgment' and 'Wrath'.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials all represent 'Judgment', but not all represent 'Wrath'.

Learn to see the 'events' of the End Times Scenario as events.

The 'Wrath of God', for example, is an 'event' - having a starting point in time and an ending point in time.

A careful examination of scripture will reveal that the 'Great Tribulation' (also an 'event' - scripture tells us when it starts and when it ends - relative to other 'events') ends before the 'Wrath of God' begins.

There is no overlap.

In fact, there are 'events' between the two:

Great Tribulation (ends)
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
Jesus appears (Second Coming)
Resurrection & Rapture
Wrath of God "poured out" on wicked

It is very straight-forward and easy to see - IF you look at the order of 'events' based on these criteria:

~ What happens before what?

~ What happens after what?

~ What happens at the same time as what?

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html


From https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/rapture-true-or-false.210286/page-9#post-5057777 (2023-04-13) :

'seals' occur over the past ~2000 years (part past, part present, part future)

'trumpets' occur over a period of time that is at least 3.5 years

'vials' occur over a period of time that is somewhere between hours and days

(Needless to say, I believe the three are clearly separate.)

Two Witnesses after end of Great Tribulation and before Second Coming of Christ

Two Witnesses actually cause the 'trumpet' events to occur during their prophecy/testimony

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

As an Israeli, and am therefore well aware of our past and why the 70 weeks were leveled against us, and will continue in the 70th, and against the unbelieving world in totality. I'd very much like to see your thoughts on that.

My thoughts on the 70 weeks:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[Jeremiah33v3]

Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation for the Church.

Anyone who says otherwise has NOT studied the Bible but instead listened to random men on youtube and considered themselves wise for just believing what some man on youtube told them.

2 Cor 13:1 to prove this.

Isaiah 26:19-21

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Notice we have have a resurrection. THEN God calls His people into their chambers to hide. THEN God Judges the earth (tribulation/Jacob's trouble).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where is the comfort in a Post-trib or Post-mill view? For they say "be happy, God is only going to poor out His wrath on everyone on earth and kill everyone and we will get tortured and mutilated...."
WHERE IS THE COMFORT?

There is none in those devilish views!
There is only comfort in pre-trib.

And one more to fit 2 cor 13:1....
Revelation 4:1-2

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

What happens?
Rev 1 is introduction and who Jesus is.
Rev 2-3 is the Church (body of Christ on earth).
Rev 4, John (a type of the Church) is brought into heaven with a voice that sounds like a trumpet!
Where else do we find a voice that sounds like a trumpet? (2 cor 13:1)
John 12:28-32
Notice the Voice from Heaven is LOUD like thunder or a trumpet!
And also Jesus promises He will bring the saved up to Him.

So no one can say the Trump in 1 Thes 4 has to be one of the 7 trumpets.

Furthermore, the Candlesticks (types of church) are in Heaven from that point on in Revelation and NOT on the earth.
Revelation 5:10 that is the Church according to 1 Peter 2:9.... God made the CHURCH Kings and Priests and they are in heaven in Revelation 5... Tribulation don't start till chapter 6!!!

Want to know why everyone today attacks the Rapture?
Revelation 3:10-11

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Satan attacks this doctrine because there is a CROWN to be had for holding onto it. There is a Crown you are given in Heaven if you are waiting and longing for the Rapture...
5 crowns... Crown of Life, Incorruptible Crown, Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, Crown of Rejoicing.
The Crown of Righteousness is for loving the Rapture... All 5 of these crowns are attacked heavily.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

 

[Jeremiah33v3]

1 Thes 4 is Pre-trib, the TRUMP is God's voice as I explained with John 12. To say it is an angels trumpet is to ignore why Jesus said this sign was given for our sakes in John 12.

Matthew 24 is to the JEWS / ISRAEL not the Church.
This is the resurrection of Ezekiel 37 NOT THE CHURCH.

You are completely messed up doctrinally...

You have decided the TRUMP is a trumpet and not the sound the trumpet makes... Despite the definition of trump being "a sound of or as if of trumpeting".
You have decided Christ coming in the CLOUDS is when Christ comes onto the mount of Olives.... BUT NOTICE! When Christ lands on the mount of Olives He comes WITH His saints and comes to the EARTH. In 1 Thessalonians 4, Jesus never touches the Ground, and He doesn't bring the saints... HE CALLS UP THE SAINTS.
You have NOT given "proper context according to Scripture".... Instead you have shoe-horned in replacement theologywith applying Matthew 24 to the Church...


And one final note... God speaks English better than you think you can speak "greek". Especially since Rapture comes from the latin word Raptur and not from Greek . (someone who appeals to greek should know what is greek and what is not)

 

[Adstar]

I believe the Rapture is real.. It is spoken enough in the scriptures.. At the same time i know that more rapture believers believe in the Pre-tribulation rapture interpretation of scriptures.. But i believe the rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus.. So i do not believe in the escapist ( we shall not suffer tribulation ) version of the rapture..

 

[Melach]

Then you have never read Rev 14 1-14 with understanding.

would that be the 3rd coming?

 

[Melach]

For one, your setting the rapture is 100% backwards.
At the end of trib there is no buying or selling for anyone without the mark.
( ahem...that alone tells you there are no
saints alive to rapture)

There will be normal life. As Jesus declared.
There will be everyday life. As Jesus declared.

Mat 24 says " before the flood, one taken/left, watch and be ready "

Your doctrine is way off and vastly omits rapture verses.
How can you unpack the rapture via omission?????

from your perspective i have to take my hat off to you. this makes sense. book of revelation has all the craziness happening so it will not be everyday life. you make the case that when Jesus said that He was referring to the rapture, prior to which all life is going along as normal?

i buy that part it makes logical sense. but where do we get the precedent of two separate returns of the Lord? 1 thessalonians 4 talks about the coming of the Lord, as does all gospels. where is the three comings?

 

[HeIsHere]

Matthew 24 is to the JEWS / ISRAEL not the Church.

What does this mean?

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Let me ask you, Is there such a thing as the rapture of the church?

Yes, there is.

When it comes to this topic, one of the verses which applies is this one.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here, the word which is translated into English as caught up is harpazō. This word appears 13 times in the New Testament, and it means to be taken by force, snatched, caught away, or caught up. In relation to the first three definitions, these 9 verses apply.

Mat 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take G726 ➔ it by force. G726

Mat 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away G726 that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Jhn 6:15
When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take G726 ➔ him by force, G726 to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Jhn 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth G726 them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall G726 ➔ any man pluck G726 them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck G726 them out of my Father's hand.

Act 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away G726 Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Act 23:10
And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take G726 ➔ him by force G726 from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

Jde 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling G726 them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

In the remaining 4 verses in the New Testament where the word harpazō appears, it means to be caught up.

2Co 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up G726 to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2Co 12:4
How that he was caught up G726 into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This man was caught up to the third heaven and/or into paradise. The Bible does describe three heavens, and this understanding will become very important in just a moment.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up G726 unto God, and to his throne.

This man child is Jesus, and he was similarly caught up into the third heaven where he is now seated at the right hand of God.

This leaves only one more place in the New Testament where this word harpazō appears, and here it is, in context.

1Th 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here, we see Jesus coming (vs. 15) or descending (vs. 16) from the third heaven. When Jesus comes and descends from the third heaven, he will bring them which sleep in Jesus (vss. 13-15) or the dead in Christ (vs. 16) with him (vs. 14). In other words, the dead in Christ are presently in the third heaven with Jesus, and they will be the first ones to receive their glorified bodies as both Jesus and they come and descend from the third heaven.

This only leaves one group of people, and that is those Christians which are alive and remain (vs. 17) at this point in time. This group is the only group that is getting caught up. Again, Jesus and the dead in Christ are coming and descending.

So, where will this group of people be caught up to?

The third heaven?

No!

in reality, they will be caught up to meet the coming and descending Lord and the dead in Christ in the clouds (vs. 17) and in the air (vs. 17). Neither the clouds nor the air are a part of the third heaven. Instead, they are both a part of the first heaven or this earth's atmosphere.

Well, what happens to everyone after this meeting in the clouds and in the air?

Do they all head to the third heaven?

Do they all just hang out in the clouds?

Do they all come down to this earth?

Wherever they go, they will ever be with the Lord there (vs. 17).

If we only had this portion of scripture to consider, then there could be some confusion as to where everybody is going after this meeting in the clouds, or in the air, or in this earth's atmosphere. Fortunately, we have other portions of scripture to similarly consider, and they clearly answer this question for us. Here is but one such portion of scripture.

1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Did you catch what Paul said in verse 50?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth. In other words, we need glorified bodies to enter into it because corruption cannot inherit incorruption (vs. 50).

I ran out of allotted space, so I will conclude in my next post.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Let us use our brains, and let us use Paul as our example seeing how it is his words that we are trying to understand.

Paul died approximately 2000 years ago, and he is currently in the third heaven without a glorified body.

2Co 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Phl 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

When Paul died, he went to be with Christ in the third heaven, and he will be numbered among the dead in Christ who descend from the third heaven when Jesus comes. At that point in time, Paul will receive his glorified body. Again, at present, he does not have a glorified body. Only Jesus does.

Seeing how Paul has been in the third heaven for approximately 2000 years without a glorified body, and seeing how Paul said that we need glorified bodies to inherit the kingdom of God, we can deduce that when Christians inherit the kingdom of God in their glorified bodies, they will inherit it here on earth. In other words, this is why Jesus and the dead in Christ are coming and descending from the third heaven, and this is why the Christians who are yet alive at that time will be caught up to meet them in the clouds, or in the air, or in this earth's atmosphere in their coming and descent. Again, they are coming and descending because Christ will be returning at that time to establish the kingdom of God right here on earth.

Anyhow, I could say a lot more about this topic, but I had to start somewhere.

 

[GaryA]

There will be normal life. As Jesus declared.
There will be everyday life. As Jesus declared.

from your perspective i have to take my hat off to you. this makes sense. book of revelation has all the craziness happening so it will not be everyday life. you make the case that when Jesus said that He was referring to the rapture, prior to which all life is going along as normal?

Yes - in a way - it may make sense; however, there is a 'flaw' in that thinking.

In the context of the passage where the following verse is found, does the activity indicated represent "normal everyday life"...?

Revelation 11:

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

What exactly is 'normal'? Tragedy/Tribulation/Trouble happens 'everyday' - even now at this time in history. And, life goes on...

The 'flaw' in that thinking is a matter of "relative significance" - it is being compared to what someone currently considers 'normal'.

All throughout history, 'normal' has included Tragedy/Tribulation/Trouble - while not concurrently experienced by everyone on earth.

Think of all of the things that are happening today. But, none of it is happening to you right now - is it? Therefore, for you, it is 'normal'.

What Jesus referred to may be described as the "normal continuance of life" as opposed to some utopian existence with no pain or suffering.

 

[BobCarabbio]

The Rapture of the church, REAL or NOT REAL?

Which "authoritative theological answer" would you like??

"Theology" is like noses. Everybody's got one, and everybody's is right, and everybody else's is HERESY!!! bla, bla, bla

Personally, I'll go with pre trib Rapture. It's as good a "theology" as any

 

[ewq1938]

Which "authoritative theological answer" would you like??

The question does not ask which version of the rapture is real, only whether the church is raptured or not. It is, so the answer is REAL.

As for when, the bible places it after the trib is over, post-trib rapture.

 

[BobCarabbio]

The question does not ask which version of the rapture is real, only whether the church is raptured or not. It is, so the answer is REAL.

As for when, the bible places it after the trib is over, post-trib rapture.

Chuckle!! I always remember Corrie Ten Boom's answer: "that is a Pre-Post-erous question".

I agree that it'll happen, but unless it HURRIES UP - I'll have to watch it all from the other side of the grass anyway. BUt HEY!!!! spread your personal interpretation all you like!!! It won't change anything.

 

[ewq1938]

Chuckle!! I always remember Corrie Ten Boom's answer: "that is a Pre-Post-erous question".

I agree that it'll happen, but unless it HURRIES UP - I'll have to watch it all from the other side of the grass anyway.

Actually you would be resurrected, and then be in the clouds to witness the living being changed and then being brought up to meet those in the clouds.

 

[BobCarabbio]

Actually you would be resurrected, and then be in the clouds to witness the living being changed and then being brought up to meet those in the clouds.

Yup - I'll take it however it comes!!!

I always remember in the '70s during the Charismatic outpouring, when "end times" consciousness was at a temporary high. Some "Entrepreneurial Christians" were selling dehydrated "Revelation food", since you couldn't buy or sell.

It was available in 3.5 year, or 7 year put-ups. BUT they suggested, that you should really buy the 7-year version - "in case your Eschatology was in error".

They didn't include a shotgun to use against your staving Christian neighbors when they came to get your food!!! Short sighted of 'em I always thought. BUT HEY!!! It's only "theology" after all.