Regeneration/baptism of the holy spirit
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sooooo...best I can explain it, regeneration would be the Holy Spirit making us a new creation in Christ when we get saved. Being "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit happens when you ask Jesus to do so, it's an extra empowering/overflowing dose but it doesn't make you any more saved. After the initial "baptizing" you can ask to be re-filled or "topped off". Living a life in accordance with Jesus' commands is vital to receiving this "topping off". I could hunt down some scriptures if you want but that's the best I can explain it.
it's even before that. someone answered the call of God, thought about & acted on it. that's really 1st. then the spiritual regeneration occurs, receiving the H.S. in other words, God giving us a new nature.
No it doesn't, because it contradicts Paul's teaching that "we were all are baptized by one Spirit
so as to form one body" (1CR 12:13), and "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
they do not belong to Christ" (RM 8:9).
It does not contradict. One body, one Spirit, one Salvation. But both the OT and NT regularly make mention of those who were specifically "full of the Spirit":
Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit.
Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 11:24
For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.
Acts 7:55
But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Acts 6:3
Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty.
In that last verse, it's referring to men who were chosen to allot church resources to the poor and widows. It specifically says to pick out FROM AMONG THE BROTHERS (those who are already saved), seven men of good reputation who are FULL of the Spirit and of wisdom.
There's many more similar verses, but I will stop there.
Regeneration is not the process of being filled with the Holy Spirit of God {even though it happens at the same time}.
Regeneration is the process of becoming a New Creation.
Think in terms of the process of being Snatched Away or also known as the Rapture. Your corrupted human flesh becomes a Heavenly Body.
But in Salvation and being filled with the Holy Spirit of God + Regenerated, you are going from Sinner lost without God to Joint-Heirs of God.
I am glad you do not intend for "it" to contradict One body, one Spirit, one Salvation, but it does, because "it" is "that" which is:
"Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit happens when you ask Jesus to do so, it's an extra empowering/overflowing dose but it doesn't make you any more saved. After the initial "baptizing" you can ask to be re-filled or "topped off".
None of the Scriptures in Acts that you quoted teach your interpretation, and EPH 4:11-13 teaches
that the way to become "topped off" or filled with the Holy Spirit (5:18) is by learning God's Word.
Hi GWH, your post is a bit chopped up so I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly I said that you are taking issue with. If you are saying that a person cannot be saved UNLESS they are full of the Holy Spirit, then I would be curious about your interpretation of Acts 8: 14-17:
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say by referencing Ephesians 4: 11-13, as that passage does not mention The Holy Spirit:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
If you are saying that God will not give us the Holy Spirit simply because we ask for it, then I would be curious about your interpretation of Luke 11: 13
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
It's funny that you are having trouble figuring out what you said when I put it in quotes, but that illustrates the need to be sure we co not use pronouns without clear antecedents.
My interpretation of Acts 8:14-17 is that Peter and John prayed for the Samaritans who had been water baptized following their professions of faith in Jesus as Messiah to receive the Holy Spirit, which they did when the apostles laid their hands on them.
Regarding EPH, the HS is mentioned in 4:3-4, and filling is mentioned in v.13.
Paul says that God gives all believers the HS by whom they are baptized into the body of Christ (1CR 12:13).
LK 11:13 means that God will save all who ask/seek/knock (MT 7:7) for the purpose of comforting and teaching GW (JN 14-16).
Over...
You put what I said in quotes, but you did not specify how it contradicts "One Body, One Spirit, One Salvation". So I still don't know what you are referring to there.
Regarding the rest of your post, you initially referenced Ephesians 4: 11-13, not 4: 3-4, so there was no way for me to know what your thinking was there. You also referenced a chapter and verse (5:18) but did not mention which book you were referring to. So, yes......your point was unclear. And still is.
I agree that The Holy Spirit is given to believers and baptizes them into the body of Christ. I also believe that being "full of the Spirit" is different from having the Spirit unto salvation, otherwise The Bible wouldn't specify when a believer was "Full of the Spirit". I believe a variety of things can contribute to a believer being "Full of The Spirit", it happened to Elizabeth when baby John the Baptist leapt in her womb and she professed that Mary was pregnant with Messiah Jesus. Stephen was full of the Spirit when he was witnessing before the council, shortly before being stoned to death. It happened to the Apostles when they were all of one accord at Pentecost. There are other mentions as well, but I will stop there.
Honestly, I'm not sure we can have a fruitful conversation, your comments are vague and I'm not sure you've actually read my posts in this thread. If Blain is finding our conversation helpful then I will keep posting, otherwise I shall wish you a good Sunday and busy myself with more fruitful endeavors.
I don't see how your response contraidicts one spirit one body and one salvation but I understood what you said and it was very insightful to me.
So basically then being baptized in the spirit is something you have to ask for and is like an empowerment of the spirit while regenreation you are created anew and this is when one becomes saved and a new heart and mind is given.
So then what I experienced a while back would be the baptism of the spirit this was when God's power was so intense to me I was stunned and just sat there smiling I felt a surge go through me like fire and it was like electircity was flowing through me.
This was the baptism as I asked him to go deeper with him and then it happened. lots of amazing things happened after that and I remember a lady came and visited me and said she could feel God's presence all around me.
So basically then being baptized in the spirit is something you have to ask for and is like an empowerment of the spirit while regenreation you are created anew and this is when one becomes saved and a new heart and mind is given.
So then what I experienced a while back would be the baptism of the spirit this was when God's power was so intense to me I was stunned and just sat there smiling I felt a surge go through me like fire and it was like electircity was flowing through me.
This was the baptism as I asked him to go deeper with him and then it happened. lots of amazing things happened after that and I remember a lady came and visited me and said she could feel God's presence all around me.
You put what I said in quotes, but you did not specify how it contradicts "One Body, One Spirit, One Salvation". So I still don't know what you are referring to there.
Regarding the rest of your post, you initially referenced Ephesians 4: 11-13, not 4: 3-4, so there was no way for me to know what your thinking was there. You also referenced a chapter and verse (5:18) but did not mention which book you were referring to. So, yes......your point was unclear. And still is.
I agree that The Holy Spirit is given to believers and baptizes them into the body of Christ. I also believe that being "full of the Spirit" is different from having the Spirit unto salvation, otherwise The Bible wouldn't specify when a believer was "Full of the Spirit". I believe a variety of things can contribute to a believer being "Full of The Spirit", it happened to Elizabeth when baby John the Baptist leapt in her womb and she professed that Mary was pregnant with Messiah Jesus. Stephen was full of the Spirit when he was witnessing before the council, shortly before being stoned to death. It happened to the Apostles when they were all of one accord at Pentecost. There are other mentions as well, but I will stop there.
Honestly, I'm not sure we can have a fruitful conversation, your comments are vague and I'm not sure you've actually read my posts in this thread. If Blain is finding our conversation helpful then I will keep posting, otherwise I shall wish you a good Sunday and busy myself with more fruitful endeavors.
Saying that "Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit happens when you ask Jesus to do so" contradicts both Paul teaching that God gives all believers the HS at conversion or then they are baptized into the body of Christ (1CR 12:13) and Jesus teaching (in MT 7:7) that all who ask/seek/knock (MT 7:7) will receive/find/open the door to salvation or kingdom of heaven (7:13-14&21).
Note that MT 7:9-11 parallels LK 11:11-13, but instead of the HS it says "good gifts", which are the fruit of the HS--which are aspects of love, which command to love sums up the Law and Prophets (MT 22:37-40). A lot of dots are connected, and hopefully now you see clearly how to connect with EPH 4:3-4, 11-13 & 5:18 and references to the HS in JN 14-16.
No, I do not read every post in every thread, so please rinse and repeat as you desire/think necessary.
Regarding "fruitful": I had never connected MT 7:7 with LK 11:13 before, so thank you for helping me see that and I will add it to my website. I thought you might get/like the pun of connecting getting "topped off" with getting drunk in EPH 5:13--but I guess it was indeed too vague.
(Otherwise, I am glad we agree :^)
So a friend of mine explained it to me and I noticed something I didn't before.
here is what he said
In John 3 in the first 15 verses you have the Lord Himself laying out what might be seen as a “two step” process if you will?
“Born again” allows one to “see” the Kingdom of God…
Salvation or “saved” from the kingdom of darkness?
“Born of the water and Spirit” is ones “empowering birth” into the Kingdom of God
Birthed into…washed and empowered for life in the spiritual Kingdom of God?
In John 20:21-23 we see the Lord “breathing” upon the 12 and saying “Receive the Holy Spirit”
Previously they had been baptized by John
Here they receive the Holy Spirit...Salvation or saved?
Then in Acts 1 the Lord Yahshua says to the same people “after” He had “breathed” the Holy Spirit upon them…”John baptized you with water”…“but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” They were washed and had received the Holy Spirit…
Were baptized in water by John
Washed?
Will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
Birthed and Empowered for Kingdom of God life on earth?
Then a bit later in Acts 1 the Lord explains things like this…“you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” They had previously been…
Washed by John…cleansed in the Word symbolized by water.
Saved by the Lord Himself…He breathed the Holy Spirit upon them
Were soon to be empowered by the receiving the Holy Spirit
Later on in Acts 19 Paul and Apollos encounter some ”disciples”…so they were “disciples” as Paul recognized and categorized them…and upon his questioning of them he found that they were baptized in water by John…So Paul proceeds to “baptize” them in the “name of” [by His authority] the Lord Yahshua in water no doubt? Then after that…Paul “lays his hands” on them and they “receive” the Holy Spirit.
Believers washed unto repentance by John
Disciples washed in the authority of the Lord
Receiving the empowerment of the Holy Spirit
I noticed the apostles went through a three step process first baptized by john in water then breathed on by Jesus to receive the holy spirit then in acts baptized in the spirit
this interests me as I think maybe I have yet to recieve the third step being empowered and baptized in the spirit
here is what he said
In John 3 in the first 15 verses you have the Lord Himself laying out what might be seen as a “two step” process if you will?
“Born again” allows one to “see” the Kingdom of God…
Salvation or “saved” from the kingdom of darkness?
“Born of the water and Spirit” is ones “empowering birth” into the Kingdom of God
Birthed into…washed and empowered for life in the spiritual Kingdom of God?
In John 20:21-23 we see the Lord “breathing” upon the 12 and saying “Receive the Holy Spirit”
Previously they had been baptized by John
Here they receive the Holy Spirit...Salvation or saved?
Then in Acts 1 the Lord Yahshua says to the same people “after” He had “breathed” the Holy Spirit upon them…”John baptized you with water”…“but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” They were washed and had received the Holy Spirit…
Were baptized in water by John
Washed?
Will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
Birthed and Empowered for Kingdom of God life on earth?
Then a bit later in Acts 1 the Lord explains things like this…“you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” They had previously been…
Washed by John…cleansed in the Word symbolized by water.
Saved by the Lord Himself…He breathed the Holy Spirit upon them
Were soon to be empowered by the receiving the Holy Spirit
Later on in Acts 19 Paul and Apollos encounter some ”disciples”…so they were “disciples” as Paul recognized and categorized them…and upon his questioning of them he found that they were baptized in water by John…So Paul proceeds to “baptize” them in the “name of” [by His authority] the Lord Yahshua in water no doubt? Then after that…Paul “lays his hands” on them and they “receive” the Holy Spirit.
Believers washed unto repentance by John
Disciples washed in the authority of the Lord
Receiving the empowerment of the Holy Spirit
I noticed the apostles went through a three step process first baptized by john in water then breathed on by Jesus to receive the holy spirit then in acts baptized in the spirit
this interests me as I think maybe I have yet to recieve the third step being empowered and baptized in the spirit
It is not valid to treat historical passages as though they are teaching what should happen today.
In Acts folks were figuring out how the HS works, so we ought to look for understanding in teaching passages of the epistles, where we learn that the HS baptizes believers into the body of Christ, but that learning GW is necessary in order to mature and remain godly or Spirit-filled more and more of the time--which will be all of the time in heaven.
I wonder whether some folks would like to participate in systematic Bible study on CC--perhaps a gospel or epistle.
I am just wondering if since it is done that way in scripture if it means it should be our example. Although everyones salvation is different it happens differently for everyone
But lets say that it does happen in three steps the water salvation regenreation part then that is when you initially recieve the holy spirit then baptixed by water then the baptism of the holy spirit which for some I have heard made them speak in tongues or start prephecying I don't know how much of that is true as I have not experienced it
But it foes make me wonder if this is the case how does one know for sure they have been baptized by the holy spirit?
I had some of the same questions fifty years ago, but I learned that sinners receive the HS at the moment they repent and invite Christ into their heart (RV 3:20, RM 8:9), which is called baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1CR 12:13, EPH 4:5), the evidence of which is love (JN 13:35, GL 5:22), and the filling by which occurs as a Christians become completely loving (EPH 3:17-19) and by means of learning GW gain spiritual maturity (EPH 4:11-15). Prophesying is preaching GW, and speaking in tongues is of little value (1CR 14:1-12).
Hi Blain, I appreciate your curiosity for the things of the Lord!
As far as the "correct" term for what you experienced, it kind of depends on who you ask. Some would describe it as the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, but then you will run into those who point out Ephesians 4:5, which says "One Lord, One Faith, One baptism". So then it gets confusing as some will think you are referring to a separate Spirit or separate salvation. I did use the term "baptism of The Holy Spirit" in another post because it was the term you seemed familiar with, but of course then @GWH was right there to point it out lol (which it IS a valid point to make, it's kinda word semantics but it can sound confusing and we shouldn't be confusing if we can help it, so thank you @GWH, now I finally know what you were taking issue with lol
.) A better/clearer term for what you experienced that day would probably be a "filling" or "pouring out" of God's Spirit. Given the etymology of the word "Baptizo" (which can mean an immersion, washing, or pouring out), I don't think it is exactly Bad/Wrong to use the word, baptism, but like I say it can be confusing to some.A pastor once explained it this way: He held out an empty cup. Then he held up a pitcher of water and said to think of the water as The Holy Spirit. He poured some water into the cup and said that was the cup getting saved (regenerated) it was now a vessel for the Master's use and could pour into other cups as well. Then he said that we can also ask to be overflowing with the Holy Spirit. He poured more water into the cup until it was spilling over the rim, running onto the floor, soaking the carpet, etc. We were all a little shocked because the floor was getting soaked. But then after he stopped pouring He commented that none of us were really paying attention to the cup anymore, we were all looking at what was flowing out of it. He was right. We decrease, so the Lord can increase.
Anyway....it was all one pitcher of the same water (same Spirit). It's one body, one salvation, One Lord that all true Christians partake of. BUT, there are multiple things we can do to increase The Spirit's presence in our lives (iNCLUDING asking for it, sorry @GWH but we may have to agree to disagree on that one!). However, asking isn't the complete sum of it, our obedience is important, so is working on the fruit of the Spirit (can't have too much of that!), It's also important to learn and apply the written word of God (logos), plus heed the Spirit when He speaks to us (rhema). One thing I have found is that God stops talking when we stop listening. Not a good place to be.
I hope this was helpful! It's a complicated and fairly contentious subject that can quickly devolve into arguments over word semantics, but I really did try lol.
Hi GWH, I do finally get what you are saying now, thanks for being more clear. I think we actually do agree on a lot of it and the issue was more over semantics and the use of the word "baptism". I am aware of the paralell between Matthew 7:9-11 and Luke 11: 11-13, though I think the "good gifts" being referred to go beyond salvation and the fruit of the Spirit (though it certainly includes them). It would also pertain to wisdom, boldness, faith, understanding, the gifts of the Spirit, and The Spirit itself (and more; but it's late and this is not meant to be an exhaustive list!). So. We may have to agree to disagree on that. But I wish you well
PS -thanks for the pun lol, no it was too vague to make sense at first but now I get it lol