I would like some perspectives on Revelation.
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You are right ... EWQ ... I was addressing "NightTwisters" understanding of "works in relation to salvation" ... Taken out of context, one might think I promoted, " once saved, always saved." ;-)
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If you be Christ, save yourself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Do not you fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man has done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.
The thief on the cross was justified and forgiven, unto salvation ... he believed, repented, and had Faith ... being his "work" .. in response to the "work" of the Holy Spirit.
The influence of the Holy Spirit, is essential for character building and forming characters after the divine nature. It is not within our capability to work out our salvation, ... genuine faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit are necessary for overcoming selfishness and our innate disobedience.
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If you be Christ, save yourself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Do not you fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man has done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.
The thief on the cross was justified and forgiven, unto salvation ... he believed, repented, and had Faith ... being his "work" .. in response to the "work" of the Holy Spirit.
The influence of the Holy Spirit, is essential for character building and forming characters after the divine nature. It is not within our capability to work out our salvation, ... genuine faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit are necessary for overcoming selfishness and our innate disobedience.
im sure its symbolic but the symbols represent something. st. john wrote down for us that the candlesticks are churches and stars are angels.
we know the imagery of the heaven being rolled up like a scroll is judgement language from the old testament used in isaiah 34 and all over, even Jesus uses it. its very common in the old testament
the biggest mystery in the book is the mark of the beast. there is so much speculation around that i have heard some crazy explanations in my time. all have come short.
here are some i have heard
1 since the mark of God is invisible and is keeping the commandments, then mark of the beast is giving your allegience to the beast and keeping his commandments. in the ot God tells people to put His law in their foreheads, so the mark of the beast would be the opposite of that. this interpretation fails because it does not stop buying and selling, no one in a grocery store will ask you if you worship God or not.
2 the adventists claim that the mark of the beast will be mandatory sunday rest. again nothing to do with buying and selling and its also very unrealistic because countries are becoming more secular and even the catholics dont care about sunday rest anymore.
3 rfid chip or something similar to it. this fits the buying and selling part extremely well and is a perfect match on that. but it doesnt have any spiritual aspect to it, no one is worshiping the beast, and why not just take the rfid chip on the left hand? outmanuevered the whole system. this is why i believe the right hand to be symbolic.
my extremely uncertain guess is that the mark of the beast is something symbolic. its very hard to interpret this in a way that ticks all the boxes.
i know the scriptures have a few references to buying and selling in a symbolic sense. but i find it hard to believe that is what is meant in revelation 13..
we know the imagery of the heaven being rolled up like a scroll is judgement language from the old testament used in isaiah 34 and all over, even Jesus uses it. its very common in the old testament
the biggest mystery in the book is the mark of the beast. there is so much speculation around that i have heard some crazy explanations in my time. all have come short.
here are some i have heard
1 since the mark of God is invisible and is keeping the commandments, then mark of the beast is giving your allegience to the beast and keeping his commandments. in the ot God tells people to put His law in their foreheads, so the mark of the beast would be the opposite of that. this interpretation fails because it does not stop buying and selling, no one in a grocery store will ask you if you worship God or not.
2 the adventists claim that the mark of the beast will be mandatory sunday rest. again nothing to do with buying and selling and its also very unrealistic because countries are becoming more secular and even the catholics dont care about sunday rest anymore.
3 rfid chip or something similar to it. this fits the buying and selling part extremely well and is a perfect match on that. but it doesnt have any spiritual aspect to it, no one is worshiping the beast, and why not just take the rfid chip on the left hand? outmanuevered the whole system. this is why i believe the right hand to be symbolic.
my extremely uncertain guess is that the mark of the beast is something symbolic. its very hard to interpret this in a way that ticks all the boxes.
i know the scriptures have a few references to buying and selling in a symbolic sense. but i find it hard to believe that is what is meant in revelation 13..
The First Beast, ... "coming out of the sea", is the anti-Christ, the Roman Church, as all the Protestant reformers, pointed out. The First Beast came out of a the populated area, symbolized by "the sea" the "10 nations around the Mediterranean sea", as you pointed correctly out.The sea, a body of water, symbolizes "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues"
Rev 17:15 And he said to me, The waters which you saw, where the whore , ( the 1st beast ) sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev_13:1 And I stood on the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads the name of blasphemy.
The seven heads and ten horns mentioned in ( Revelation 12:3, 13:1, 17:3) symbolize political powers that oppose God and His people throughout history.
The "seven heads" are often identified as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the papacy. ... 5 being the "Metal Man" powers, of Daniel Ch 2.
The Ten Horns are the ten original nations, that took over Europe after the Roman Empire collapsed. The Alemanni, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Burgundians, Visigoths, Suevi, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Bavarians, and Vandals. ... Three of which, are the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths, the three uprooted horns in Daniel 7:8. Uprooted by the "little horn" power of the Papacy. ... Who is the little horn that 'has eyes' of a man, and is 'speaking' blasphemous things in Daniel 7
***********************Check out this web page for an in-depth study > Little Horn***************************
... The Second Beast, is the United States, as we came out of "The Earth", an unpopulated area, as apposed to "the sea".
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. (Satan) Revelation 13:11-18
And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast... Rev 13:11,12
The US started out like the two horns of a lamb, Republicanism & Christianity ... but NOW ! We've taken on the "image" of the first Beast, we are looking like her ( the papacy ) a union of Church & State.
The USA, sadly, is NOW, all about, deception and lawlessness, spiritually as well as materially... having taken on the nature of the First Beast. ... The Lawless One, also known as the man of lawlessness, who opposes God and His law, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:3,
The nature of, ... "The thief (Satan) comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I (Jesus) am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10
I agree Brother, "symbolic" .. We have to let the Bible interpret itself. ... Let the Holy Spirit define Himself. For us to do so, is presumptuous, which is akin to Pride > Sin.
1Pe_1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass wither, and the flower thereof falls away:
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● 2Pet 1:20-21 . . Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of
any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will
of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Beware allowing that passage to persuade one's self to avoid digging into
prophecy because it's not talking about the study of prophecy, rather, it's
talking about the prophets themselves, viz: it's about the origin of their
prophecy rather than any particular reader's understanding of their writings.
In other words: the sayings of the prophets weren't produced by human
reasoning and a fertile imagination. No, they channeled their sayings directly
from the top.
"men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
For example:
● Gal 1:11-12 . . I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is
not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor
was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Anyway, my point is: we must be ever wary of folks who attempt to employ
2Pet 1:20-21 in their on-going effort to dissuade folks from personally
examining Revelation for themselves and coming to their own conclusions
because Jesus wants the final book of the Bible to be read and remembered
rather than be set aside.
_
● 2Pet 1:20-21 . . Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of
any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will
of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Beware allowing that passage to persuade one's self to avoid digging into
prophecy because it's not talking about the study of prophecy, rather, it's
talking about the prophets themselves, viz: it's about the origin of their
prophecy rather than any particular reader's understanding of their writings.
In other words: the sayings of the prophets weren't produced by human
reasoning and a fertile imagination. No, they channeled their sayings directly
from the top.
"men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
For example:
● Gal 1:11-12 . . I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is
not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor
was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Anyway, my point is: we must be ever wary of folks who attempt to employ
2Pet 1:20-21 in their on-going effort to dissuade folks from personally
examining Revelation for themselves and coming to their own conclusions
because Jesus wants the final book of the Bible to be read and remembered
rather than be set aside.
_