Understanding God’s election

[studier]

An unbeliever starts to become disaffected by some of their native cultural norms and an egg moves away from the ovary to travel down the fallopian tube. A sperm enters the egg and something from God's word is received by the unbeliever. The fertilised egg inplants in the uterine wall and starts to receive nutrition from the womb. The unbeliever attaches to some member/s of the church and starts to receive nutrition from the church. The baby grows until it feel cramped and under pressure in the woman and wants to be released, and the unbeliever grows in understanding until they become uncomfortable and constricted by the world and wants leave the world. The child when fully developed secretes a small amount of protein that causes the woman to expel the child, and when the unbeliever has sufficient understanding of the gospel to start living as a Christian independently of the world they express a mustard seed of faith in Christ, which causes the world to react and expel them. This expulsion is often, but not always, traumatic for the mother and the child or both, but is necessary for the child to survive. and thrive Leaving one's cultural traditions to embrace the Christian Way is also often traumatic for the convert and their community, but is necessary for the newly-believing convert to survive and thrive.

Such a natural process God has designed for His creation. Too bad some never make it.

It would be fun to see how this could be more and more refined, and more parallels conceived (no pun intended).

 

[studier]

If my own understanding and faith and my ability to communicate those were not growing from these interactions with intransigent idealogues, and I did not believe my responses could be helpful to genuine truth-seekers, I would feel like that. But I actua;;y feel like this....

Since we're on analogies, the pins could either be false doctrines, or people. I wonder if that last person even knows he fell.

 

[PaulThomson]

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:15 ESV] 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

[Rom 5:15 NIV] 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

I agree with this verse. What do you think it is saying, in your own paraphrase?

 

[PaulThomson]

Since we're on analogies, the pins could either be false doctrines, or people. I wonder if that last person even knows he fell.

I think I see the pins more as fallacious argumentations.

 

[PaulThomson]

Such a natural process God has designed for His creation. Too bad some never make it.

It would be fun to see how this could be more and more refined, and more parallels conceived (no pun intended).

I'll meditate on it some more and post any new parallels that come to mind.

 

[studier]

Is it just me or is everyone else unable to use the bold and underline features lately?

no such issues here.

 

[studier]

I think I see the pins more as fallacious argumentations.

Agree but for some reason I was visualizing @Rufus standing & spinning not really accepting he's falling... Shame on me. I'll go read 1J1 again.

 

[studier]

It sounds like you really despise most of mankind, other than your kind. By their fruit you shall know them.

You noticed that too. I've noticed it along the way but this time it seemed more emphatic.

 

[Jimbone]

They cannot even acknowledge that faith is a gift...


Yes, we were told some would try to slip in some other way besides through Jesus.

“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.” Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them.

Just as you fail to understand what He means when He says a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

With the heart one believes. You have the corrupt heart bringing forth the fruit of faith.

Maybe one day you will understand that is not possible.

Maybe one day, you will believe Jesus.


Perhaps you missed it. Depleted, who was also here as atwhatcost, said that was true not only of her, but of
her husband John also. Maybe you remember her because you say you have been here for quite some time...
The more I listen to you and your ilk, the more it seems you have a strong preference for cookie-cutter
Christianity. However, I can assure you, life is far more complex than that, as are people's faith journeys.

And God is FAR greater than they'd every give Him glory for. The most sad part to me is they can not see that they are trying to claim Gods glory as their own. They have a problem with the idea that salvation is of God lest any man boast. God 100%, men 0%. They hate this assertion, they hate this TRUTH and they cling to the idea that they still hold some power over the situation and have to claim it came from within themselves. I understand it, and also believed this way when I was a baby Christian, but He has taken me WAY deeper than that now and I KNOW the truth that the only good in me was/is from Him and He saved me with nothing but resistance from me until He granted me repentance and I saw "my way" for the worthless heap it was. Team "It Was ALL God!!!" fo life!!!

 

[HeIsHere]

If my own understanding and faith and my ability to communicate those were not growing from these interactions with intransigent idealogues, and I did not believe my responses could be helpful to genuine truth-seekers, I would feel like that. But I actua;;y feel like this....

That is very good because I agree this "unbiblical system" of redemption needs to be repudiated at every turn, so if you are energized in that pursuit that is a good thing.

 

[HeIsHere]

The process (neuter gender) of salvation, that we are saved by grace (charis, feminine gender) through faith (pistis, feminine gender), that (Touto, neuter gender) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God;

This is the key right here. .... "that" referring to the "gift"
The "gift" being salvation.
The End!

 

[studier]

And God is FAR greater than they'd every give Him glory for. The most sad part to me is they can not see that they are trying to claim Gods glory as their own. They have a problem with the idea that salvation is of God lest any man boast. God 100%, men 0%. They hate this assertion, they hate this TRUTH and they cling to the idea that they still hold some power over the situation and have to claim it came from within themselves. I understand it, and also believed this way when I was a baby Christian, but He has taken me WAY deeper than that now and I KNOW the truth that the only good in me was/is from Him and He saved me with nothing but resistance from me until He granted me repentance and I saw "my way" for the worthless heap it was. Team "It Was ALL God!!!" fo life!!!

Sure, this is what we baby Christians are doing and can't see and hate...

I don't see you share much to help others see the "WAY deeper" knowledge of the truth of Scripture you have. Is there a reason?

 

[rogerg]

I agree with this verse. What do you think it is saying, in your own paraphrase?

Grace, per Rom 5:15, is given exclusively as (free) gift. Salvation, per Eph 2:8, is exclusively by grace. Therefore, as a gift, contrary to your earlier post, a recipient's faith plays no part in their receiving of grace or their justification/salvation (especially since they are not even given true faith until becoming saved). And that is what makes Christ the Savior, not man.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:16 KJV] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[PaulThomson]

Grace, per Rom 5:15, is given exclusively as (free) gift. Salvation, per Eph 2:8, is exclusively by grace. Therefore, as a gift, contrary to your earlier post, a recipient's faith plays no part in their receiving of grace or their justification/salvation (especially since they are not even given true faith until becoming saved). And that is what makes Christ the Savior, not man.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:16 KJV] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

You did not paraphrase the verse as I requested to show how it says what you are explaining and claiming it to be saying. I can't see how you get from the verse to your claims about what it is teaching. An accurate paraphrase from you would help us follow your reasoning regarding the wording of the verse..

 

[rogerg]

You did not paraphrase the verse as I requested to show how it says what you are explaining and claiming it to be saying. I can't see how you get from the verse to your claims about what it is teaching. An accurate paraphrase from you would help us follow your reasoning regarding the wording of the verse..

The verses I included are self-explanatory - needing nothing further. What don't you understand about them?

 

[rogerg]

You did not paraphrase the verse as I requested to show how it says what you are explaining and claiming it to be saying. I can't see how you get from the verse to your claims about what it is teaching. An accurate paraphrase from you would help us follow your reasoning regarding the wording of the verse..

Grace is a free gift by Christ; salvation is by Christ by grace. Nothing more than grace, as a gift, is needed.

 

[PaulThomson]

The verses I included are self-explanatory - needing nothing further. What don't you understand about them?

I understand those verse as they are translated and agree with them. But you are making claims about them that don't seem to be inherent in the texts on their face. So, I am asking you to paraphrase the verses so that the ideas you are expressing are clearly demonstrated from your paraphrase of the wording of the texts. Then we can see which ideas you are seeing because they are there, or whthwer there are ideas you are smuggling into the text, by ascribing meanings to words and terms that are not according to common usage.

 

[PaulThomson]

Grace is a free gift by Christ; salvation is by Christ by grace. Nothing more than grace, as a gift, is needed.

I read "we are saved by grace through faith" not that salvation is by Christ by grace and nothing MORE than grace.

 

[rogerg]

I read "we are saved by grace through faith" not that salvation is by Christ by grace and nothing MORE than grace.

Right, but if grace is a free gift, then the "through faith" simply cannot be our faith. In fact, since grace is a free gift is by Christ,
then the faith is Christ's faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

Right, but if grace is a free gift, then the "through faith" simply cannot be our faith. In fact, since grace is a free gift is by Christ,
then the faith is Christ's faith.

Still waiting for a paraphrase that says what you nbelieve rather than what I believe, since we both believe the verses as they appear in the KJV.