A misconception of obedience

[GWH]

We might differ on what needs to be obeyed and the reasons, but not the importance. In the end, we all believe obedience is essential. The issue becomes when we end up on not agreeing on what we mean by obedience. I’m not advocating obedience is the means and the only means of salvation without the need of grace, mercy, faith and love. When lost sinners obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to them (Rom. 6:17)..they expressed their faith and desire to be saved by God’s grace..humbly throwing themselves on His mercy. The doctrine that was delivered unto them was not something they earned or could boast about. It is of God. The gospel is of God (2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 1:16). Thus, any form of obedience from a heart of faith that is motivated, driven, and fueled by the gospel call of salvation (Acts 2:39) cannot possibly be one as earning or boasting..and cannot be considered relying or trusting in self. The only boasting one can do is give glory to God (1 Cor. 1:13; 2 Cor. 10:17) for what all He did in providing the means of salvation. Not self. The only boasting/rejoicing one can do once they get saved is with the testimony of their conscience with godly sincerity…by the grace of God (2 Cor. 1:12). I’m not advocating a kind or type of obedience that is boastful in ourselves (Titus 3:5) or our own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), or one that is legalistic or Phariseeish. I’m not advocating a follow the rule obedience with zero faith, zero love and not depending on grace and mercy when we fall short. I’m advocating one that is of faith in submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3) through/by the power/authority of Christ Jesus our Lord (Mt. 28:18), who is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb. 5:9).

— Believer08

Amen. All Christians agree that the Gospel kerygma/GRFS needs to be obeyed, which is to accept grace through faith in Jesus as Messiah/Christ and Lord.

Accepting Jesus as Lord means that Christians agree that obedience is essential, although disagreement about didachaic or secondary teachings may give the devil an opportunity to cause divisions if believers give him a chance, which is why Paul said not to allow the sun to set while one is angry (EPH 4:26).

Yes, faithfully obeying the Lord is not reverting to believing salvation is via doing good works or obeying moral laws, so boasting in the Lord (1CR 1:31) is glorifying God for His goodness and grace.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

The verse you are quoting is about our personal introspection, the honest as possible observation of our thoughts.

This effort, though noble is not a guarantee of salvation and without that guarantee personal assurance is not possible.

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"

In other words, no one is so sincere that they cannot fool themselves.

NO ONE.

Jesus is not wicked. When we look inside our new hearts and see that He is in there, it confirms that we have passed from death to life. If this were not the case, there would be no need to test ourselves or examine ourselves to determin if He is in there.

Here's another verse that speaks about the consequences of Christ living in a person's heart...

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Ro 8:9)​

You must think this is a true statement, right? But then you think it is undiscernable?

How about this one...

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:10)​

Is it impossible to discern that Christ is in you? If so, what is the purpose of telling us about the things that are a consequence of His presence?

Or, going a step further...

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. (Ro 8:16)​

Is it impossible to hear and comprehend and believe the Spirit's direct testimony to us that we are God's children?

 

[homwardbound]

I see, Father has got you smothered and covered in his Holy Spirit and Truth for you. teaching you

1. 1 John 2:1
   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 John 2:12
   I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 John 2:13
   I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Authorized (King James) Version
2 John 1:1-3
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2 for the truth’s sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

• Jeremiah 31:34
  "People will no longer have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the LORD, because all people will know me".
  
  
• Hebrews 8:11
  "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me".
  

Hebrews 5:12 says that people who are new to God's ways need "milk", while those who are more experienced need "strong meat". This verse suggests that people who continue to rely on "milk" are immature and don't know much about right and wrong.

• Hebrews 8:11 No longer will each one teach his neighbor or ...
  Hebrews 8:11 No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, fr...
  
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• Jeremiah 31:34 Share - Bible.com
  Jeremiah 31:34 New Century Version (NCV) People will no longer have to teach their neighbors and relatives to know the LORD, becau...
  
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• 1 John 2:27 - Bible Gateway
  
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• Show all

therefore in being, getting saved from Father and Son, we do as led to do, by free choice to choose to do over having to do. No force from God as is perceived we have to, is not true and never has been true, yet religion preaches one has too, having a hammer to control others is not good for anyones Soul, and these preachers know to put the hammer away and show you the freedom given, yet these do not do that in worry, fear you will not attend and have no Money from anyone, at the religious leaders did to Son to begin with over Job security, people were not going to them less and less,, as the good news spread. they got the thought of to be homeless, and so got Son killed. Only to their open shame, once saw him risen read Col 1 and 2
God loves us all, as I see you got this and learning this truth too, thank you great post to me at least

 

[Lamar]

Jesus is not wicked. When we look inside our new hearts and see that He is in there, it confirms that we have passed from death to life. If this were not the case, there would be no need to test ourselves or examine ourselves to determin if He is in there.

Here's another verse that speaks about the consequences of Christ living in a person's heart...

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Ro 8:9)​

You must think this is a true statement, right? But then you think it is undiscernable?

How about this one...

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:10)​

Is it impossible to discern that Christ is in you? If so, what is the purpose of telling us about the things that are a consequence of His presence?

Or, going a step further...

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. (Ro 8:16)​

Is it impossible to hear and comprehend and believe the Spirit's direct testimony to us that we are God's children?

Let me be as clear as I can.

Nothing in your verses proves in any way that you (NewLifeinChrist) has an all-encompassing personal individual guarantee of eternal salvation upon your death and appearance before the judgement seat of God.

You are attempting to forcefully interject yourself into the pronouns of these verses. This is your error.

You have nothing but your claim that these verses apply to you, they very well may but nothing you have provided proves this.

This post is not against you personally (I don't even know you) but please understand many churches and cults use these same verses to "prove" their salvation.

They are wrong to use these verses in such a way and so are you.

 

[Sipsey]

Let me be as clear as I can.

Nothing in your verses proves in any way that you (NewLifeinChrist) has an all-encompassing personal individual guarantee of eternal salvation upon your death and appearance before the judgement seat of God.

You are attempting to forcefully interject yourself into the pronouns of these verses. This is your error.

You have nothing but your claim that these verses apply to you, they very well may but nothing you have provided proves this.

This post is not against you personally (I don't even know you) but please understand many churches and cults use these same verses to "prove" their salvation.

They are wrong to use these verses in such a way and so are you.

If indeed, he is wrong, what makes you correct?

 

[Lamar]

No one is trusting in their own righteousness. Is it not reasonable to believe Lamar is very well trusting in Jesus and His sacrifice, and is confident in Jesus?

To the very best of my knowledge and hopefully with a sincere heart I have and will always trust in the Lord and Christ, Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God. Part of the Triune Godhead spoken of in scripture. The fully human and fully God that both lived and died on this planet for our sake. The Jesus who physically was raised from the dead and will return someday to judge the world.

I believe that the Jesus of the Bible is the only savior of the world. He is both my Creator and Sustainer.

It is through His grace that we all have hope. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the perfect lamb of God.

There is nothing that I can do to redeem myself and so I will both seek Him out and call upon His name when the day that I will face my judgement. I will not assume my place at the banquet or even my name to be on the list of guests. I will hopefully be given a wedding garment and never think that putting it on is a work.

I am but a lost and flawed soul hoping for a savoir but knowing that I do not deserve one.

 

[Lamar]

what makes you correct?

What makes me correct?

The same thing that makes NewLifeinChrist correct.

 

[Sipsey]

What makes me correct?

The same thing that makes NewLifeinChrist correct.

Ok

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Let me be as clear as I can.

Nothing in your verses proves in any way that you (NewLifeinChrist) has an all-encompassing personal individual guarantee of eternal salvation upon your death and appearance before the judgement seat of God.

You are attempting to forcefully interject yourself into the pronouns of these verses. This is your error.

You have nothing but your claim that these verses apply to you, they very well may but nothing you have provided proves this.

This post is not against you personally (I don't even know you) but please understand many churches and cults use these same verses to "prove" their salvation.

They are wrong to use these verses in such a way and so are you.

Sorry, Lamar. I have no need or desire or ability to prove my salvation to you or to anyone else, and I have not tried to do so using the verses I quoted. What I have tried to do is to share verses with you that would lead you to be introspective about your own salvation so that you can determin for yourself whether you are in fact saved. In other words, I'm not asking you to prove your salvation to me, I'm asking you to prove your salvation to yourself.

 

[Lamar]

Sorry, Lamar. I have no need or desire or ability to prove my salvation to you or to anyone else, and I have not tried to do so using the verses I quoted. What I have tried to do is to share verses with you that would lead you to be introspective about your own salvation so that you can determin for yourself whether you are in fact saved. In other words, I'm not asking you to prove your salvation to me, I'm asking you to prove your salvation to yourself.

You are fooling no one.

It is you who has claimed to know your fate on judgement day.
It is you who has claimed to know how this knowledge is attained.

No one can "prove your salvation" whether to ourselves or others.

Your line of thinking is flawed on this subject.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You are fooling no one.

It is you who has claimed to know your fate on judgement day.
It is you who has claimed to know how this knowledge is attained.

No one can "prove your salvation" whether to ourselves or others.

Your line of thinking is flawed on this subject.

Is the flaw more than just the missappropriation of pronouns, or is there more to it?

 

[Lamar]

Is the flaw more than just the missappropriation of pronouns, or is there more to it?

"Pronouns" ???

What post are you replying to???

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

"Pronouns" ???

What post are you replying to???

You are attempting to forcefully interject yourself into the pronouns of these verses. This is your error.

 

[Believer08]

Some people are so afraid of being "works based" they neglect obedience....

 

[Cameron143]

Some people are so afraid of being "works based" they neglect obedience....

Who are these people?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

The New King James Version (Mic 6:8). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Who are these people?

Honestly, I have so often experienced the correction that the Lord delivers as described in Hebrews 12 that I don't really know how anyone can neglect obedience for any length of time.

 

[Cameron143]

Honestly, I have so often experienced the correction that the Lord delivers as described in Hebrews 12 that I don't really know how anyone can neglect obedience for any length of time.

You are hardly alone.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You are hardly alone.

Yep, every one of us who are His children experience His correction. I can vouch for the verse that says it is not pleasant but grievious.

 

[rrcn]

Could you go a little further in defining "obedience" and maybe compare and contrast your enhanced definition with a definition of "legalism". The speed at which this thread is moving indicates a fair amount of interest in the subject. I have even detected a little emotion in the response of several of my friends on this site.