Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

You're a liar. He doesn't teach or say anything like this. This is your cartoon version of "Calvinism" that you slap on others so you can ignore any real conversation and lift up yourself as a "warrior of God". It's honestly sad and tragic you're as blind to it as you are. The fact you have to lie about what your "enemy" says is a huge red flag that everything you think and stand on isn't as solid as you think it is.

It seems they (generally speaking) do not understand that it is out of love for us that God lifts us out of our natural state in the first place. Some hold so tightly to the idea that the natural man needs no help, believing that the natural man has qualities and abilities only the spiritual man possesses, which makes plain they see no distinction. Some even say that God revealing Himself in personal ways is unfair, or would make God unfair if He were to do that, which the Bible has multiple examples of, which really only displays the fact that they do not have a personal relationship with God, because that is definitely one of the many promises He keeps, and how He draws us with loving kindness. And/or they claim that God acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will. Such declarations by them really just come across as they hate God's sovereignty while elevating the power of man to save himself.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's the same gospel Paul shared in 1 Corinthians 15. And telling someone that God sent His Son because He loved the world isn't a lie.

I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

 

[HeIsHere]

Not according to Ephesians 2, where Paul writes to the Christians at Ephesus:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” (Eph 2:1-8 NKJV)

A sinner dead in trespasses and sins does not have the ability to have faith.

Do you speak a gendered language?

 

[Cameron143]

I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

What's your point?

 

[Magenta]

I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Audience application... to whom is he speaking?

What's your point?

There is none.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
@GWH are you paying attention?

 

[GWH]

I do not pretend to not to understand English, so that is just another false accusation coming from you while you say you want me seek peace. I actually have a fairly good grasp of English. How is further accusing me you seeking peace??? What am I to clarify, since you have pointed to nothing that can in any way account for your falseness in the first place in claiming I blaspheme God by ascribing hatred of humanity to Him? What false accusation have I made? You falsely accused me and that is a fact. You made a list and pretended it applied to me when it came from your own wicked imagination. Now you say you misunderstood something but there is nothing I have said that could be interpreted to mean God hates humanity. Where is any false accusation in that?

I am seeking further clarification on what you have said. Are you saying God has made alive in Christ every single person that they may rightly choose? That they actually come into the world in a condition that makes belief in God possible even though Scripture calls them children of wrath and says they are condemned already because they do not believe? Or are you saying that the spiritually dead who are opposed to the gospel and the spiritual things of God while lovers of darkness and captive to the will of the devil can of their own volition and no work done on them by God beforehand can and will simply decide/choose to believe that which is foolishness to them?

I am glad you understand English and that I misunderstood you as implying God hated the non-elect.

I see that you also are seeking peace/agreement, but you do not want to do so by means of sharing a clarifying statement parallel to what I posted. Instead, you want to seek further clarification about what I have said.

1. Are you saying God has made alive in Christ every single person that they may rightly choose? I am saying God has given every sinful (morally accountable) soul sufficient volition for obeying the command of Jesus to ask/seek/knock, but they are only made alive or saved when after finding God's answer/open door they repent and walk through by opening the door of their heart--because Jesus was knocking at their door first. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate--or not.

2. That they actually come into the world in a condition that makes belief in God possible even though Scripture calls them children of wrath and says they are condemned already because they do not believe? Yes. Isn't that the condition we were all in before believing?

3. Or are you saying that the spiritually dead who are opposed to the gospel and the spiritual things of God while lovers of darkness and captive to the will of the devil can of their own volition and no work done on them by God beforehand can and will simply decide/choose to believe that which is foolishness to them? No.

 

[PaulThomson]

Fine. I should have said grace is universally manifested in rain and sunshine. But you make my point for me. In salvation, grace is manifested in faith in an individual as the undeserved gift.

If your point is that "grace is manifested in faith in an individual as the undeserved gift" then I don't believe I have made your point for you at all.

For the text of Eph. 2: to agree with your theory, it would say: "For you are saved by grace giving/imparting faith to you." it doesn't say that.
Eph 2:8
For are ye saved in grace (chariti) through faith (dia pisteOs); and that (i.e. being saved in grace by faith) is not from yourselves (i.e. being saved in grace by faith is not an MO you invented) : it is the gift of God (i.e. it is the MO God invented and gifted to us).

I could agree with your wording, if you say " In salvation, grace is manifested in faith in an individual as an undeserved gift." But I realise you mean would something quite different by "faith in an individual".

I would say, "Yes, faith (the ability to trust, that can be used to trust that water will come from the tap when I turn it, or that Jesus died for my sins) is a faculty given to all those born of women, and is therefore a manifestation or gift (charisma) of grace (charis), a gift graciously given by God."

You understand the same sentence to mean that "the belief that 'Jesus died for my sins' is itself a gracious impartation by God to an individual that God wants to save, an impartation He does not give to those He does not choose to save." I don't agree that scripture teaches your understanding.

 

[NOV25]

I am quite familiar with RC, having served a church in Maryland, and having viewed RC hosts on RAV for a few years, and so I know that there are many who disavow inquisition and papalism and are compatible with Protestants, even Evangelicals.

I guess you view "ecumenical" as not helping my case, but it means the opposite of denominationalism and divisiveness, and so was prayed for by Jesus in JN 17 and commanded by Paul in 1CR 3.

Again, I need you to specifically cite where you think RC seeps into the kerygma.

All I can say is, the recipe for biblical unity is given here

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The above requires fruits of the Spirit, attributes given by Christ-practiced, sharpened and observed by close fellowship-something that cannot be faked and will be known by all men.

Give this some thought from a practical standpoint. How does inviting a wolf in sheepish disguise to your Bible study work out? The sheep are silenced or flee, the wolves multiply to become the majority and the church becomes stagnant or worse.

In other words, your kerygma is a large part of the problem, I hope you can see this.

 

[Hakawaka]

Oh, there you are! I was looking for you yesterday... hoping to find a thread of yours, the title of which escapes me.

But I cannot find it through your profile anyways since I do not have the ability to view it...

Still, I am glad to see you are still with us

Maybe I should change the settings. Yeah I am here. Are you referring to the apology thread? Feels nice that someone here remembers me!

 

[GWH]

Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
@GWH are you paying attention?

Yes, and I invite you to help lead the study of Ephesians on the Systematic Bible Study thread,
(because it appears that PT may be pooping out, but if not, the more the merrier :^)

 

[Cameron143]

If your point is that "grace is manifested in faith in an individual as the undeserved gift" then I don't believe I have made your point for you at all.

For the text of Eph. 2: to agree with your theory, it would say: "For you are saved by grace giving/imparting faith to you." it doesn't say that.
Eph 2:8
For are ye saved in grace (chariti) through faith (dia pisteOs); and that (i.e. being saved in grace by faith) is not from yourselves (i.e. being saved in grace by faith is not an MO you invented) : it is the gift of God (i.e. it is the MO God invented and gifted to us).

I could agree with your wording, if you say " In salvation, grace is manifested in faith in an individual as an undeserved gift." But I realise you mean would something quite different by "faith in an individual".

I would say, "Yes, faith (the ability to trust, that can be used to trust that water will come from the tap when I turn it, or that Jesus died for my sins) is a faculty given to all those born of women, and is therefore a manifestation or gift (charisma) of grace (charis), a gift graciously given by God."

You understand the same sentence to mean that "the belief that 'Jesus died for my sins' is itself a gracious impartation by God to an individual that God wants to save, an impartation He does not give to those He does not choose to save." I don't agree that scripture teaches your understanding.

I appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[GWH]

All I can say is, the recipe for biblical unity is given here

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The above requires fruits of the Spirit, attributes given by Christ-practiced, sharpened and observed by close fellowship-something that cannot be faked and will be known by all men.

Give this some thought from a practical standpoint. How does inviting a wolf in sheepish disguise to your Bible study work out? The sheep are silenced or flee, the wolves multiply to become the majority and the church becomes stagnant or worse.

In other words, your kerygma is a large part of the problem, I hope you can see this.

Amen re JN 13:34-35/fruit.

Re the systematic BS, I invite you to help lead it and unmask wolves.

You still didn't explain what you find problematic re the 5-point elaboration of GRFS/the kerygma.

 

[NOV25]

You still didn't explain what you find problematic re the 5-point elaboration of GRFS/the kerygma.

I did, even drew you a picture.

 

[GWH]

I did, even drew you a picture.

Oh crud, I missed that too. What post #?

 

[NOV25]

Oh crud, I missed that too. What post #?

Many pictures actually, if you count the ones from the other thread.

You seem like a smart fella, you’ll figure it out-or you won’t.

 

[GWH]

Many pictures actually, if you count the ones from the other thread.

You seem like a smart fella, you’ll figure it out-or you won’t.

Thanks for nothing.

 

[Rufus]

I'll see your OT Scripture and raise you MT 5:44&48. Are you Jewish?
It is common knowledge that RM 9:13 can express approval-disapproval rather than "Jacob I saved, but Esau I damned".

(However, I may look at those other references later just for fun :^)

And I'll see your Mat 5 texts and raise you Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10; 16:27.

Re Esau, God did not bring him into a covenant relationship with Himself, as he did with Jacob. Neither did God bring Ishmael into a covenant relationship with himself either. That's the whole point to the opening verses in Rom 9. There are two kinds of Jews: Children according to the flesh, and children according to the promise. Ishmael and Esau were of the former kind. Neither were true children of Abraham.

You're a typing contradiction.

The angry God who loved the world by sending His Son and demonstrated His love by having Him die for sinners.

What a mess...

No contradiction since God didn't send Jesus into the world to die for all sinners w/o exception. Clean the cobwebs out of your own attic, then you'll no longer be sensing your own mess.

 

[Rufus]

Kroogz said:


Yeah, you have to LIE to an unbeliever. I Don't.

If they come to me, I can Tell them the truth.....The Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL men, and He asks That you believe in Him to be saved.

You have to tell them, jesus died for some men, you can't believe it until he saves you. He may have died for you, no one knows. Good luck!

No, we don't have to lie to any unbeliever. I personally tell unbelievers that Christ died for all those throughout the world who repent of their sins and believe in Him.

But it you FWs who have to tell the bald-face lie! You FWS tell an unbeliever that Christ died for them in one breath and then in the next tell them they still have to do their part in order to effectuate Christ's death for themselves. You should truthfully be telling unbelievers that Christ's death on the Cross is a only a potential atonement, and they have to close the deal themselves to effectuate that death.