What is a church?

Mem · Mar 19, 2025

the etymology of ekklesia comes from the Greek "ek" (out) and "kaleo" ( to call) meaning "called out ones." But this was offered early on in the beginning of the thread...
You can call out a building if you insist but it won't come near. It, literally, can't hear.

Aaron56 said:

It strikes me that it could just as well be speaking to assembling a body by adding parts to it that were not previously attached, especially that the introduction to that encouragement is, "Let us not neglect (leave behind)..."

If this is the actual spirit of what is being expressed, then that would imply that everyone would need to be welcomed, in order that any particular one might be "...spurred on to love and good deeds (Heb 10:24)."

Inquisitor · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

A lot of folk say scripture only.

As usual, that really means church doctrine rather than the gospel itself.

Memorize 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered
to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me.

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

Romans 10:17 - So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Of course, we must first hear the word/the gospel before we can repent (change our mind) and believe the gospel then become saved. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Belief that saves goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus. In James 2:19, we read that even the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God", but they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. It's not enough to believe "mental assent' that Jesus exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) You trust in a check list of works for salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord along with believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead is a conviction of the heart. It's not about simply reciting the words, "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps as a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, but acknowledging and professing allegiance. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. It's not about believe unto righteousness today (but still lost) until we confess next week and then we are finally saved next week. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10)

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8) and confession is a confirmation of faith that is by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) which is why we will be saved if we confess. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord at conversion and beyond. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that) but is a deep personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

Now in Matthew 10:32, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him everywhere they went. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes make believers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23 but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

Repentance actually "precedes" saving belief/faith.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

You reverse the scriptural order of repentance and belief/faith in salvation and turn repentance into moral self-reformation. You also turn belief/faith into mere mental assent belief. You cannot seem to grasp a deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is belief/faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. When only repentance is mentioned in scripture in connection with salvation belief/faith is implied or assumed. When only belief/faith is mentioned in scripture in connection with salvation repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other.

CONTINUED..

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:17, 18 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:7-9 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 16:31 - So, they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *What happened to baptism?

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism?

*Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Those who gladly received his word (through repentance/faith) were (afterwards) baptized. (Acts 2:41) The same day three thousand souls were added, and baptism was not the cause, but the effect. The cause was belief/faith "implied in repentance." In Acts 4:4, we read - But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. In Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

In Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. How are we saved? (Ephesians 2:8,9) *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

DJT_47 · Mar 19, 2025

mailmandan said:

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:17, 18 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:7-9 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 16:31 - So, they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *What happened to baptism?

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism?

*Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Those who gladly received his word (through repentance/faith) were (afterwards) baptized. (Acts 2:41) The same day three thousand souls were added, and baptism was not the cause, but the effect. The cause was belief/faith "implied in repentance." In Acts 4:4, we read - But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. In Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

In Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. How are we saved? (Ephesians 2:8,9) *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

You are hilarious! Just keep trying, using your illogical logic to undermine the simple, straightforward words of the bible, in a feeble attempt to negate the need for baptism as relates to salvation. 🤣

DavidLamb · Mar 19, 2025

Inquisitor said:

Not according to the bible. We never find the word "church" used in the bible to mean a building where Christians meet for worship.

DavidLamb · Mar 19, 2025

Inquisitor said:

A secular dictionary meaning. What is far more important is what the bible means by the word "church".

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

What is so hilarious about interpreting scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine? You prefer instead to distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so-called gospel plan.

If water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, then why is it missing from numerous passages of scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith? (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 Peter 1:9; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..)

In Luke 13:3, Jesus said - I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. If we don't repent (change our mind) then we will not believe the gospel/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and be saved. Two sides to the same coin.

In John 3:18, Jesus said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now show me where Jesus said - whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. I'll be waiting.

There are a handful of alleged proof texts that certain folks use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, those texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized. (Acts 10:44-47) Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Everlasting-Grace · Mar 19, 2025

mailmandan said:

sounds like one of those modern day pharisees.. who thank God they are not like that poor tax collector

Everlasting-Grace · Mar 19, 2025

Inquisitor said:

the church is a building as in the building we meet at is called the blank blank church

but the church proper "ekklesia" is all the born again believers who were baptized into the body of Christ.

Everlasting-Grace · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Water baptism has never been required for salvation.

if anyone is being illogical it is you. I would study the passages a little better. to see what they really say.

DJT_47 · Mar 19, 2025

Everlasting-Grace said:

Im not illogical at all, nor am I interjecting my own thoughts or logic as you and others are; I'm simply quoting or citing the scriptures verbatim.
If you can read at an elementary level, you will be able to see the scriptures say in plain English exactly that. The scriptures say water baptism IS required for salvation!

Mk16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 Peter 3:2121The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

Im not illogical at all, nor am I interjecting my own thoughts or logic as you and others are; I'm simply quoting or citing the scriptures verbatim.
If you can read at an elementary level, you will be able to see the scriptures say in plain English exactly that. The scriptures say water baptism IS required for salvation!

Mk16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 Peter 3:2121The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Out of context. Read it all.

DJT_47 · Mar 19, 2025

mailmandan said:

Like I said, you are hilarious

Everlasting-Grace · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

No it does not

Mk 16 does not counter John 3 and John 6. where no baptism is required. so either water baptism is not the baptism of Mark 16 or the verse is not scripture (it is missing from many including the oldest two manuscriptipts)

1 peter 3 is using the waters of the flood as a seperation between the fall and salvation. and saying water baptism is the same

it symbolizes the difference between our fall (death) and our new life (spiritual life)

it does not remove filth (sin) from the flesh (our mortal souls)

Everlasting-Grace · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

actually you are.

Jesus said he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

Jesus did not change his mind and later add the word baptism as a requirment

DJT_47 · Mar 19, 2025

Everlasting-Grace said:

The words say what they say and mean what they mean. They are not mine, they're the Lord's. Disregard them if you like. It matters not to me.

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

Be sure to go back and read posts #192 and #234. Like I said, READ IT ALL and stop cherry picking.

DJT_47 · Mar 19, 2025

mailmandan said:

You're still hilarious!

mailmandan · Mar 19, 2025

DJT_47 said:

I find nothing hilarious about your false gospel or your unbelief.

What is a church?

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