Continuationism vs cessastionism?
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I concur if we cannot stand back from our pride in our beliefs then what are we left with?
The whole debate is centered around what cessationists believe vs others.
If they believe the apostolic gifts are no more that leaves a very dull and faithless world and how it can be viewed any other way I do not know.
I personally have seen things pertaining to healing I cannot explain and to those who say give me
examples it is pointless because if when you ask this you cannot see that you are not taking me at my
word then why continue I AM NO LIAR especially in regards to this topic and I will not be treated as such by those of little faith.
I came to CC BECAUSE I felt the strong desire in my heart to be nearer to God and his teachings yet when I came closer I found I was just as well off before I showed (mostly). I may have gained more knowledge in scripture but I have found a profound lack of faith within the very halls of its own propoundity. FOR SHAME.
The whole debate is centered around what cessationists believe vs others.
If they believe the apostolic gifts are no more that leaves a very dull and faithless world and how it can be viewed any other way I do not know.
I personally have seen things pertaining to healing I cannot explain and to those who say give me
examples it is pointless because if when you ask this you cannot see that you are not taking me at my
word then why continue I AM NO LIAR especially in regards to this topic and I will not be treated as such by those of little faith.
I came to CC BECAUSE I felt the strong desire in my heart to be nearer to God and his teachings yet when I came closer I found I was just as well off before I showed (mostly). I may have gained more knowledge in scripture but I have found a profound lack of faith within the very halls of its own propoundity. FOR SHAME.
1
I can't recall any references to andrew, thomas or Bartholomew either.......
So if they're not mentioned later, they don't count??
1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
So if they're not mentioned later, they don't count??
1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
mmm.....um.
John 14:25-26.
that was spoken directly by Jesus to and about His Apostles, pending His Ascension.
it says, nor has anything WHATSOEVER to do with "prophets" keeping the church pastors and elders "accountable". the very idea is ABSURD.
the Holy Spirit teaches us THE SAME THINGS, when we hear or study Scriptures, since they have been RECORDED.
continuationists ALWAYS take text that was NEVER addressed to them and just drag it down to 2011. its a terrible thing to do really.
anyways...EVEN IF that is what was meant by prophecy, your "proof text" dispels it completely. a bad mix, overall and a very alarming insistence on things and gifts and powers that were never, not one time promised to believers beyond the first century church.
but.....fortunately even this form of apostasy (for that is what it is) was foretold.
re John 14:25-26:
John 14:25-26.
that was spoken directly by Jesus to and about His Apostles, pending His Ascension.
it says, nor has anything WHATSOEVER to do with "prophets" keeping the church pastors and elders "accountable". the very idea is ABSURD.
the Holy Spirit teaches us THE SAME THINGS, when we hear or study Scriptures, since they have been RECORDED.
continuationists ALWAYS take text that was NEVER addressed to them and just drag it down to 2011. its a terrible thing to do really.
anyways...EVEN IF that is what was meant by prophecy, your "proof text" dispels it completely. a bad mix, overall and a very alarming insistence on things and gifts and powers that were never, not one time promised to believers beyond the first century church.
but.....fortunately even this form of apostasy (for that is what it is) was foretold.
re John 14:25-26:
Reason 3 - The Scriptures Are Complete
Hebrews 1:1-2 says the following:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
The Greek word elalesen (spoken) is an aorist tense verb. The aorist tense indicates an action that has been completed in the past. Is God still speaking to us today through new revelation (tongues and prophecy)? No, because God has already spoken through His Son. His revelation is complete. But when did God speak by His Son? The answer can be found in John.
"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. - John 14:25-26
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. - John 16:12-15
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. - John 16:12-15
From these passages we see that the Apostles are not given anything apart from Jesus. Jesus was the true prophet. He had a set doctrine or teaching that he wanted to pass on to the disciples. However, the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember the things that Jesus taught. Even Paul was directly taught by the risen Jesus Christ (see Gal. 1:12 & 1 Cor. 11:23). Jesus is very clear in this passage that the Holy Spirit will speak only the things He hears from the Son (see "He will take of Mine and declare it to you" in vs 15). That is why the early church needed the gift of prophecy and tongues while the canon (list of books considered scripture) was being completed by the disciples. Theses gifts (as well as miracles) also authenticated the message being delivered.
The canon of scripture was eventually finished by John with the following warning in Revelations.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Rev. 22:18-19
When John wrote Revelation, he was aware of the fact that he was the only surviving eye witness and apostle. Therefore, this warning can be understood in a much broader sense than just the book of Revelation.
I have yet to find a new translation of the Bible that contains new revelation from a modern day tongues and prophecy. But why not? If a new tongue or prophecy is from God, then it should be recognized as the very words of God and added to the back of every Bible. Why should there be any distinction? If God has really spoken through a modern day prophet, then His words today should cary the same authority as His words spoken long ago. Many who argue that tongues and prophecy are for today would balk at such an idea. They know that their modern day tongue or prophecy do not have the same authority as scripture. But they fail to explain why.
hmm...do we know each other?
there was a member here for a time (he apparently left) that you remind me of.
conspiracy?
the NAR is real dear....haven't you noticed?
no tin foil hats required.
and you are dead wrong about the women Paul was referring to. he was actually referring to the prophetesses in the new church...and there were NT women who prophesied. new revelation friend.
they were not permitted to do so in church.
Cessationism Defended - RealGospel.org
but, you could start a thread on THE JEZEBEL SPIRIT if that would help your case. that's usually where this goes from here. in fact you may know there's one not too far back the archives.
The Dishonoring of God in Popular Spiritual Warfare Teaching,
by Bob DeWaay
To show that I am not over-stating their claims, consider this statement by Francis Frangipane who claims to have sold hundreds of thousands of spiritual warfare books:
The church that successfully wars against Jezebel will be a church that inherits the glorious "morning star," which will be visible outward glory, a symbol of hidden, inward purity. It will be a church that exercises "authority over the nations," uniquely because it has conquered the Jezebel spirit which sought to strip God's servants of authority.14
He supposes that the Jezebel in Revelation 2:20 is a spirit being that is currently controlling much of society and the church.
Jezebel's principle enemies are modern prophets who are "Elijah" coming in spirit before the coming of the Lord.
He states, "Seeing Jezebel so blatantly manifest herself only confirms that the spirit of Elijah is also here bringing repentance and raising up warring prophets throughout our land!"15 In keeping with common dominionist spiritual warfare claims, this assumes that the church throughout history allowed itself and the rest of society to be ruled by Satan's agents, but that now new prophets with new revelations are going to bring us into world dominion.
The Dishonoring of God in Popular Spiritual Warfare Teaching, by Bob DeWaay
so given the New Kids have invented a Jezebel Spirit who is against the NAR, you can call me Jez (Wagner's followers do).
in fact, i am reasonably informed, and am able to have a meaningful conversation with you. it's just that you hate my position.
you find me antagonistic because the NAR is a counterfeit movement and is illegitimate in any sense of having authority over Christ's Church, which makes them what Paul referred to as false apostles.
just too many warnings against false ones, and too much crystal clear evidence and testimony in scripture itself that the FOUNDATION WHICH WAS LAID ONCE FOR ALL TIME, was Jesus Himself and His holy prophets and apostles.....DONE.
2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Revelation 2:2
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
there was a member here for a time (he apparently left) that you remind me of.
conspiracy?
the NAR is real dear....haven't you noticed?
no tin foil hats required.
and you are dead wrong about the women Paul was referring to. he was actually referring to the prophetesses in the new church...and there were NT women who prophesied. new revelation friend.
they were not permitted to do so in church.
Cessationism Defended - RealGospel.org
but, you could start a thread on THE JEZEBEL SPIRIT if that would help your case. that's usually where this goes from here. in fact you may know there's one not too far back the archives.
The Dishonoring of God in Popular Spiritual Warfare Teaching,
by Bob DeWaay
To show that I am not over-stating their claims, consider this statement by Francis Frangipane who claims to have sold hundreds of thousands of spiritual warfare books:
The church that successfully wars against Jezebel will be a church that inherits the glorious "morning star," which will be visible outward glory, a symbol of hidden, inward purity. It will be a church that exercises "authority over the nations," uniquely because it has conquered the Jezebel spirit which sought to strip God's servants of authority.14
He supposes that the Jezebel in Revelation 2:20 is a spirit being that is currently controlling much of society and the church.
Jezebel's principle enemies are modern prophets who are "Elijah" coming in spirit before the coming of the Lord.
He states, "Seeing Jezebel so blatantly manifest herself only confirms that the spirit of Elijah is also here bringing repentance and raising up warring prophets throughout our land!"15 In keeping with common dominionist spiritual warfare claims, this assumes that the church throughout history allowed itself and the rest of society to be ruled by Satan's agents, but that now new prophets with new revelations are going to bring us into world dominion.
The Dishonoring of God in Popular Spiritual Warfare Teaching, by Bob DeWaay
so given the New Kids have invented a Jezebel Spirit who is against the NAR, you can call me Jez (Wagner's followers do).
in fact, i am reasonably informed, and am able to have a meaningful conversation with you. it's just that you hate my position.
you find me antagonistic because the NAR is a counterfeit movement and is illegitimate in any sense of having authority over Christ's Church, which makes them what Paul referred to as false apostles.
just too many warnings against false ones, and too much crystal clear evidence and testimony in scripture itself that the FOUNDATION WHICH WAS LAID ONCE FOR ALL TIME, was Jesus Himself and His holy prophets and apostles.....DONE.
2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Revelation 2:2
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
The New Apostolic Reformation
A Warning About Latter Day Apostles
by Dr. Orrel Steinkamp
In this paper we discuss New Testament Apostles today from the viewpoint that there is no biblical authority that supports the end time restoration of the office of apostle: therefore, there are no New Testament Apostles today.
Wayne Grudem, a sometimes promoter of current prophetic utterances is absolutely convinced that there are no NT apostles today. He states: “Since no one today can meet the qualifications of having seen the risen Jesus with his own eyes, there are no apostles today. In the place of living apostles present in the church to teach and govern it, we have instead the writings of the apostles in the books of the NT. Those NT scriptures fulfill, for the church today, the absolutely authoritative teaching and governing functions which were fulfilled by the apostles themselves during the early years of the church.” (Grudem, The Gift of Prophecy in the NT today, p. 276).
Background
One of the central new teachings of the Latter Rain Movement of the 1940’s and 50’s was the so-called restoration of Apostles and Prophets to the overcoming Endtime Church.
This restoration teaching percolated on the back burners of the Charismatic Renewal for years, but it was never promoted heavily and no one attempted to systematically implement it on a worldwide scale. Into this vacuum has stepped C. Peter Wagner as a central personality. Wagner has given organizational and promotional impetus to this so-called restoration and has taken bold steps to implement apostolic restoration to a wider Global Church--as a result he is positioned to have a greater influence than many other promoters of apostolic restoration.
Beginning with his association with John Wimber, Wagner moved quickly into charismatic Christianity. He has systematized certain charismatic spiritual warfare practices and developed his strategic warfare mentality etc. He also promoted what he called the “Third Wave.” In this “Third Wave” he saw generic evangelicals getting involved with signs and wonders without adopting traditional Pentecostal Theology. He has a broad Evangelical pedigree and has notoriety as a former missiologist at Fuller seminary. He is the recognized heir and successor to Donald McGavern, the founding father of all church growth teaching. In addition to being a co-founder of the World Prayer Center in Colorado Springs, he is the founding president of Global Harvest Ministries, which is responsible for the “United Prayer Track” of AD2000 and Beyond” as well as many other missions related activities outside the AD2000 organization.
The Billy Graham Lausan conference adopted Wagner’s missions/evangelism agenda. And he is now in association with many holdovers from the Latter Rain of the 50’s who got a new lease on life in the Charismatic Renewal. Bishop (also prophet and apostle) Bill Hamon is a significant name in this regard.
In Bishop Hamon’s book “Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God: End Times Plan for His Church on Planet Earth,” Wagner states, in a forward, that Hamon was influential in nurturing him through what he calls a paradigm shift from traditional Christianity.” Hamon expressed this new paradigm in October 1999 when he announced to the “International Gathering of Apostles and Prophets” that “we are seeing prophets and apostles coming forth for a strategic reason...We are being positioned to lay new foundations for the dawning of a New Kingdom Age. We are in the throws of birthing a whole new order-dispensation...We are about to move from the dispensation of grace to the dispensation of dominion.”
Although Wagner and his apostolic friends are generally unknown to rank and file pastors and church leaders, they are, nevertheless, boldly proclaiming their authority in the church. They apparently feel that they are now “positioned” to make authoritative “apostolic declarations” to the wider church. Wagner recently posted on his Website an “Open Memorandum Addressing the Twin Towers War.” In the memorandum dated September 14th from C. Peter Wagner, presiding apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles, he made the following statement: “This is the time for apostolic declarations. The church is in a position now, characterized by active and accepted roles of Apostles and Prophets and Intercessors that it has not experienced in 1800 years.” Wagner then quoted Prophet Rick Joyner: “What seemed to so many to be an impossible task of restoring Apostolic Christianity to the earth is about to become a reality.” With such overreaching optimism , it is not surprising that Wagner and friends have planned to implement their dream.
Implementation:
The New Apostolic Roundtable:
Wagner is linked with Twenty-five other Apostles who have been invited to form an international leadership of Apostles. These roles are by invitation only.
The International Coalition of Apostles:
On a lower level they have formed a larger grouping of Apostles. Wagner sees this group growing to about 500. They plan to hold yearly convocations and summits around the world.
Apostles to the Cities:
In Wagner’s latest book, “Apostles of the City: How to mobilize Territorial Apostles for City Transformation,” he calls for each major city to elevate a cadre of Apostles to leadership.
Because Wagner has unlimited funds at his disposal, he is able to make quite an impact. Is all this money and effort called for, or is it an expensive game of “let’s pretend” in the church.
The answer to that question is based on one fundamental question: Is there any biblical authority to teach an end-time restoration of the office of apostle?
Paul, the last Apostle:
Today, we occasionally speak of people as apostles--usually limited to pioneer missionaries. William Carey, for example, has been called the apostle to India. The only reason this term is used is that someone was sent to pioneer a new area with the Gospel. This, of course, is never confused with the foundational apostles of the NT era. In NT times, there was also a loose and broad way to use the word apostle, in the sense of someone sent on a mission of some kind. On these occasions, the word simply means “messenger” or “delegate.” In these instances, these delegates (sent ones) are never confused with the special and restricted meaning of a foundational apostle of the church.
NT Qualifications of Foundational Apostles:
NT apostles were required to be eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus. This is indicated in Acts 1:22 when Peter insisted that the replacement of Judas “must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Paul (1 Cor. 9:1) defended his apostleship by saying, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen the Lord?”
In recounting those to whom Jesus appeared, Paul says: “After He was seen by James and then by all the apostles, then “last of all” he was seen by me also as one “born out of due time” (I Corinthians 15:8). Paul was “untimely born” in the sense that Jesus had appeared to the other apostles before his ascension. Paul, converted by a miraculous post-ascension appearance of the resurrected Jesus, also saw the risen Lord, albeit later in time than the other apostles. The phrase “last of all” seals the case that Paul was the last apostle. “Last of all” grammatically can only be an adverb describing something that is last in a series.
This is even more certain when there is a group of adverbs (then...then...and last of all). In Paul’s mind he was the last of all the apostles. Surely he would be surprised to hear that he wasn’t really ‘last of all.’ Who were these foundational apostles? First there were the initial twelve with Matthias replacing Judas. Second, apparently there were a very few more who had seen Jesus and been commissioned by Him. Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas and Paul apostles. James, the brother of Jesus, is called an apostle in Galatians 1:19. Andronicus and Judas were called apostles in Romans 16:7.
Most commentators see them as apostles in a functional and broad meaning. I found no commentators who referred to them as foundational apostles. If, indeed they were foundational Apostles, they could have been among the 500 people who saw the risen Jesus on one occasion (I Corinthians 15).
The generation that followed the last biblical apostles never ever considered the continuation of the office of apostle.
Apparently the word of Paul, the last apostle convinced them. The so-called end-time restoration of apostles has no biblical authority. The only possible authority is “further revelation” given to the prophets of the Latter Rain and those who have taken up further revelation: beyond the scriptures. The choice is simple, do we believe Paul was right when he said he was the last apostle or do we believe latter day prophets who have pronounced on their own authority, a restoration of apostles at the end of the age? For me, Paul settles the question once and for all.
Critical Issues Commentary: The New Apostolic Reformation
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Who were these foundational apostles? First there were the initial twelve with Matthias replacing Judas. Second, apparently there were a very few more who had seen Jesus and been commissioned by Him. Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas and Paul apostles. James, the brother of Jesus, is called an apostle in Galatians 1:19. Andronicus and Judas were called apostles in Romans 16:7. Most commentators see them as apostles in a functional and broad meaning. I found no commentators who referred to them as foundational apostles. If, indeed they were foundational Apostles, they could have been among the 500 people who saw the risen Jesus on one occasion (I Corinthians 15).
Critical Issues Commentary: The New Apostolic Reformation
Critical Issues Commentary: The New Apostolic Reformation
um...
crazy accusations? HUH?
i've posted article and lecture after article by SCHOLARS and theologians.
they address the matter exegetically and dispassionatley.
not one of them is a religious paranoiac or fear monger.
do you read them, since you claim to come to find out what others believe?
you don't respond to their writings.
but you do respond to THE POSTER.
can we discuss the last few articles i've posted?
one last question: are we to expect ANY false prophets and apostles? how will we know who they are?
please be very precise.
any names of living prophets or apostles you believe are legitimate, could you list them so we can ALL see? we are supposed to test everything, right?
crazy accusations? HUH?
i've posted article and lecture after article by SCHOLARS and theologians.
they address the matter exegetically and dispassionatley.
not one of them is a religious paranoiac or fear monger.
do you read them, since you claim to come to find out what others believe?
you don't respond to their writings.
but you do respond to THE POSTER.
can we discuss the last few articles i've posted?
one last question: are we to expect ANY false prophets and apostles? how will we know who they are?
please be very precise.
any names of living prophets or apostles you believe are legitimate, could you list them so we can ALL see? we are supposed to test everything, right?
a profound lack of faith IN WHAT???
MEN SAYING THEY ARE GETTING REVELATIONS?
MEN SAYING THEY ARE RAISING THE DEAD?
MEN SAYING THEY TAKE AUTHORITY OVER THE CHURCH?
who denies HEALING AND ANSWERED PRAYER? WHO? i never see anyone do that. ever.
is that what we should place our faith in?
i place my faith in Christ and God's Revealed Word, with the Faithfulness and power of the Holy Spirit.
God said He works ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD.
i place my faith in that.
i do NOT place faith in faith (certainly not others' so-called faith that says christians die or get sick or are poor for lack of faith).
MEN SAYING THEY ARE GETTING REVELATIONS?
MEN SAYING THEY ARE RAISING THE DEAD?
MEN SAYING THEY TAKE AUTHORITY OVER THE CHURCH?
who denies HEALING AND ANSWERED PRAYER? WHO? i never see anyone do that. ever.
is that what we should place our faith in?
i place my faith in Christ and God's Revealed Word, with the Faithfulness and power of the Holy Spirit.
God said He works ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD.
i place my faith in that.
i do NOT place faith in faith (certainly not others' so-called faith that says christians die or get sick or are poor for lack of faith).
To deny every mans word of testimony is to say yours is absolute I do not do this.
You do however use a lot of other mens words to support your own as in the above mentioned post
I do not use other mens words to support my stance just my own or scripture
I never said ONCE place your faith in man!
If I cannot use my own words to articulate what I say then what good are words anyway?
So your saying if a man shows up at your door with an aura of holy spirit about him and says"follow me to Jesus you wouldn't go?
Or that if you seen someone you personally knew who was dying with terminal cancer suddenly healed by faith that you would deny that it was a heavenly sent gift?
How can you be so sure the scripture you adhere to is faultless considering its 2000+ year history and countless denominational fractures resulting in either doctrine being put in or taken out?
This is NOT TO SAY DISCARD IT ENTIRELY EITHER before the debate goes in that direction.
Rather focus on the common ground to bring those to the faith who need it most rather than ridicule those who's beliefs differ slightly to your own.
The Word is the spirit of the Word not just the context!
If only our faith were as large as a mustard seed eh?
Selah
You do however use a lot of other mens words to support your own as in the above mentioned post
I do not use other mens words to support my stance just my own or scripture
I never said ONCE place your faith in man!
If I cannot use my own words to articulate what I say then what good are words anyway?
So your saying if a man shows up at your door with an aura of holy spirit about him and says"follow me to Jesus you wouldn't go?
Or that if you seen someone you personally knew who was dying with terminal cancer suddenly healed by faith that you would deny that it was a heavenly sent gift?
How can you be so sure the scripture you adhere to is faultless considering its 2000+ year history and countless denominational fractures resulting in either doctrine being put in or taken out?
This is NOT TO SAY DISCARD IT ENTIRELY EITHER before the debate goes in that direction.
Rather focus on the common ground to bring those to the faith who need it most rather than ridicule those who's beliefs differ slightly to your own.
The Word is the spirit of the Word not just the context!
If only our faith were as large as a mustard seed eh?
Selah
lol.
what?
who has ever denied every man's testimony of anything?
when people say they got healed or their aunt got healed, i have no reason to disbelieve!
i've been miraculously healed!
but that is NOT what the cessationist continuationist debate is about.
not at all.
that's why it always goes sideways.
just seems hard for folks to stay focused on what is at stake - what are the claims?
oh my.
i use scripture.
all the time! sheesh...maybe this isn't worth it.
how frustrating.
thats where my postition comes from! scripture!
cessationists have to use scripture to point to cessationism as actual, since unlike continuationists, they are not using anecdotal evidence or human logic or desire to prove something.
and ALL the articles and sermon i post are exgetical. they use scripture.
ok, but what about this man, for example:
Global Harvest Ministries
he claims to be the chief apostle of our day, heading up the thousands of prophets and apostles who have the authority to run the church.
should i believe him? just because he claims the title?
should i have faith in what he says?
what about these men?
These so-called prophets were a group of men that coalesced around a church known as the Kansas City Fellowship, pastored by Mike Bickle, that attracted a following of other likeminded churches in that region. They argued that God was spearheading a new revival from their churches, and that he was restoring the office of prophet. Just as other "prophets" we discussed in these pages, yesterday's Kansas City stock could have it both ways. They could hear from God, and speak forth God's words, prophesying of great events soon to transpire on planet earth. And they could have flipped a coin as to whether what God allegedly told them would actually come true. Often they didn't come true.
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE] Some of the main prophets and/or leaders in the movement included Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, John Paul Jackson, Francis Frangipane, and others. Bob Jones (no relation to Bob Jones of Bob Jones University in South Carolina) was the visionary of the bunch. He was said to have been especially anointed with supernatural visions from the Lord and a prophetic gift. However, he was quoted as saying that the general level of prophetic revelation in the movement's "prophets" had an accuracy level of about 65 percent. Some prophets were as low as 10 percent accurate, he said, with some of the "most mature" prophets having a rating "approaching 85 percent to 95 percent. "
they make serious claims and are actually accepted, with their doctrines by a huge and growing portion
of Christianity: is that a reason to accept what they say?
uh...no.
why would i? Jesus is coming in great Glory and every eye will see Him.
Matthew 24
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
Luke 17:23
Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them.
its this kind of statement i just don't know what to do with.
why, why on earth would i DENY THAT??? why?
this is about CESSATIONISM of foundation offices and gifts. not about God not healing people!
i hold to sola scriptura with what i have any day over maybe some bible and a million prophets.
k
what?
who has ever denied every man's testimony of anything?
when people say they got healed or their aunt got healed, i have no reason to disbelieve!
i've been miraculously healed!
but that is NOT what the cessationist continuationist debate is about.
not at all.
that's why it always goes sideways.
just seems hard for folks to stay focused on what is at stake - what are the claims?
oh my.
i use scripture.
all the time! sheesh...maybe this isn't worth it.
how frustrating.
thats where my postition comes from! scripture!
cessationists have to use scripture to point to cessationism as actual, since unlike continuationists, they are not using anecdotal evidence or human logic or desire to prove something.
and ALL the articles and sermon i post are exgetical. they use scripture.
ok, but what about this man, for example:
Global Harvest Ministries
he claims to be the chief apostle of our day, heading up the thousands of prophets and apostles who have the authority to run the church.
should i believe him? just because he claims the title?
should i have faith in what he says?
what about these men?
These so-called prophets were a group of men that coalesced around a church known as the Kansas City Fellowship, pastored by Mike Bickle, that attracted a following of other likeminded churches in that region. They argued that God was spearheading a new revival from their churches, and that he was restoring the office of prophet. Just as other "prophets" we discussed in these pages, yesterday's Kansas City stock could have it both ways. They could hear from God, and speak forth God's words, prophesying of great events soon to transpire on planet earth. And they could have flipped a coin as to whether what God allegedly told them would actually come true. Often they didn't come true.
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE] Some of the main prophets and/or leaders in the movement included Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, John Paul Jackson, Francis Frangipane, and others. Bob Jones (no relation to Bob Jones of Bob Jones University in South Carolina) was the visionary of the bunch. He was said to have been especially anointed with supernatural visions from the Lord and a prophetic gift. However, he was quoted as saying that the general level of prophetic revelation in the movement's "prophets" had an accuracy level of about 65 percent. Some prophets were as low as 10 percent accurate, he said, with some of the "most mature" prophets having a rating "approaching 85 percent to 95 percent. "
they make serious claims and are actually accepted, with their doctrines by a huge and growing portion
of Christianity: is that a reason to accept what they say?
uh...no.
why would i? Jesus is coming in great Glory and every eye will see Him.
Matthew 24
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
Luke 17:23
Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them.
its this kind of statement i just don't know what to do with.
why, why on earth would i DENY THAT??? why?
this is about CESSATIONISM of foundation offices and gifts. not about God not healing people!
i hold to sola scriptura with what i have any day over maybe some bible and a million prophets.
k
True or false
Cessationists believe the apostolic offices have ceased in being?
Cessationists believe apostolic powers of healing, prophesy and tongues have ceased?
Cessationists believe in the practice of Sola Scriptura of the Protestant bible even though many canons of the Catholic church were not included in what is now known as the KJV for whatever reasons of the day?
Cessationists believe the apostolic offices have ceased in being?
Cessationists believe apostolic powers of healing, prophesy and tongues have ceased?
Cessationists believe in the practice of Sola Scriptura of the Protestant bible even though many canons of the Catholic church were not included in what is now known as the KJV for whatever reasons of the day?
Cessationism is adding to the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 13 a few things. They say the prophecy was fulfilled when the Church was founded or the Bible was complete. This is adding to the Bible. No where in the prophecy does it say that this is when it will be fulfilled. It is pure assumption. I've never seen so much assumption becoming a doctrine. It's unheard of. If you read 1 Corinthians 13 you can get the idea that what is being prophecied hasn't happened yet. It never agrees with Cessationism. I simply say to Cessationist, you add to the Bible. What you say, is not there.