Understanding God’s election
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Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.
[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
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You still haven't answered Roger's question. Saving Faith does NOT come by star-gazing or contemplating this natural, temporal order.
Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide, since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened (1Tim 4:2; Rom 1:28; Eph 4:19).
Let's take this a step further: What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?
And we can drill down even deeper in this question: How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?
Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide, since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened (1Tim 4:2; Rom 1:28; Eph 4:19).
Let's take this a step further: What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?
And we can drill down even deeper in this question: How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?
In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. Yet, Paul said that he taught the full counsel of God -- not just the passages that tickled his fancy. Also, you ignore Solomon's exhortation to avoid all extremes, which is impossible to do when you purposely reject or omit or ignore passages that don't tickle your own ears.
Correct. How could God love everyone on the planet with his covenant of love when the vast majority of its people God never knew covenantally (in the filial sense) and will be condemned (Mat 7:23)? Did God cut a redemptive covenant that I'm unaware of with all mankind in the distributive sense? If you think so, point to the covenant in scripture and its terms.
To the best of my knowledge there is no scripture that teaches that God predestined any of his purposes. He predestines PEOPLE, not purposes.
Secondly, I take it that you believe that all true saints of God are saved by Him as a result of their faith and repentance, correct? God does not repent and believe for anyone, right? I certainly believe that every one of God's elect exercised personal faith and repentance. But...where we differ substantially is that you believe that God's saving grace is a response to or a consequence of a sinner's faith and repentance; whereas I believe that a sinner's faith and repentance flows entirely from God's saving grace -- that faith and repentance is the inevitable result of such saving grace. Take this passage for example:
2 Tim 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
ESV
It's important to note that in this particular text, Paul uses the term "works" in a very broad, sweeping, general sense. He did not qualify the term as he often does in other places, e.g. "works of the law". He's talking about any and all works. The NIV captures this unqualified sense of the term "works" quite nicely:
2 Tim 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
NIV
Therefore, this one verse alone totally dismantles your Pelagian or Arminian idea that God's salvation flows from sinners' works of faith and repentance. In fact, Paul went on to say that God called us to a holy life because of his own purpose and grace. And this harmonizes quite nicely with the Reformed Tradition that understands that faith and repentance are gifts from God and that sinners consequently believe because God has graciously showered sinners with these gifts.
Yet, your heretical soteriology clearly implies that saving grace flows from sinners' faith and repentance -- things we have done! Therefore, in you scheme of soteriology you have God repaying sinners for their acts of faith and repentance -- a concept that militates strongly against this passage, which I expounded on a few days ago:
Rom 11:35
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
NIV
Yet, this is what your false gospel implicitly teaches! God merely REACTS to or RESPONDS to: Man's choosing Him first, knowing Him first, loving Him first and last but by no means least -- man's faith repentance. THEN....God will save him. Don't forget in your soteriology man's will is the sole and final determinant of his eternal destiny. Therefore, it's man's faith and repentance that triggers God's subsequent saving grace. But this falsehood is clearly refuted by something else Paul told Timothy:
1 Tim 1:14
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV
Therefore, a sinner's faith, repentance and love for God is a consequent of the grace of God that is poured out on every single elect sinner.
Secondly, I take it that you believe that all true saints of God are saved by Him as a result of their faith and repentance, correct? God does not repent and believe for anyone, right? I certainly believe that every one of God's elect exercised personal faith and repentance. But...where we differ substantially is that you believe that God's saving grace is a response to or a consequence of a sinner's faith and repentance; whereas I believe that a sinner's faith and repentance flows entirely from God's saving grace -- that faith and repentance is the inevitable result of such saving grace. Take this passage for example:
2 Tim 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
ESV
It's important to note that in this particular text, Paul uses the term "works" in a very broad, sweeping, general sense. He did not qualify the term as he often does in other places, e.g. "works of the law". He's talking about any and all works. The NIV captures this unqualified sense of the term "works" quite nicely:
2 Tim 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
NIV
Therefore, this one verse alone totally dismantles your Pelagian or Arminian idea that God's salvation flows from sinners' works of faith and repentance. In fact, Paul went on to say that God called us to a holy life because of his own purpose and grace. And this harmonizes quite nicely with the Reformed Tradition that understands that faith and repentance are gifts from God and that sinners consequently believe because God has graciously showered sinners with these gifts.
Yet, your heretical soteriology clearly implies that saving grace flows from sinners' faith and repentance -- things we have done! Therefore, in you scheme of soteriology you have God repaying sinners for their acts of faith and repentance -- a concept that militates strongly against this passage, which I expounded on a few days ago:
Rom 11:35
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
NIV
Yet, this is what your false gospel implicitly teaches! God merely REACTS to or RESPONDS to: Man's choosing Him first, knowing Him first, loving Him first and last but by no means least -- man's faith repentance. THEN....God will save him. Don't forget in your soteriology man's will is the sole and final determinant of his eternal destiny. Therefore, it's man's faith and repentance that triggers God's subsequent saving grace. But this falsehood is clearly refuted by something else Paul told Timothy:
1 Tim 1:14
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV
Therefore, a sinner's faith, repentance and love for God is a consequent of the grace of God that is poured out on every single elect sinner.
Prophecy.
That is one evidence God predestined events and people.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Foreordained-Plans
That is one evidence God predestined events and people.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Foreordained-Plans
Re "Saving Faith does NOT come by star-gazing or contemplating this natural, temporal order.": Paul begs to differ per Rom1:20.
Re "Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide": Yes, no mere mortal is infallible.
Re "since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened": Yes it can, but Jesus indicated it also can seek salvation in Matt7:7.
Re "What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?": The Bible does not provide the answer to this question, although given that God is loving they certainly would not go to hell, but on what basis would they qualify for heaven?
Re "How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?": Same answer as for the previous question.
Re "In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. ": ...than to tickle your ears with Scriptures interpreted as teaching God is cold, stern and unfeeling.
Re "Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide": Yes, no mere mortal is infallible.
Re "since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened": Yes it can, but Jesus indicated it also can seek salvation in Matt7:7.
Re "What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?": The Bible does not provide the answer to this question, although given that God is loving they certainly would not go to hell, but on what basis would they qualify for heaven?
Re "How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?": Same answer as for the previous question.
Re "In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. ": ...than to tickle your ears with Scriptures interpreted as teaching God is cold, stern and unfeeling.
So, you don't like it when I do fair and balance and appeal to the WHOLE COUNSEL of God so that we can have a more accurate and true understanding of the nature of God's love? That doesn't speak very well to your spiritual condition, nor is your attitude God-honoring since ALL scripture is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, etc. (2Tim 3:16) -- and not just your pet verses. But it does speak strongly to your personal biases.
And, yes, the bible does address what happens to those who die without having a true knowledge of good and evil. But look how quick you are to provide your one-trick pony answer to this problem...to paraphrase: "Well, God's love would never let any such persons to be condemned eternally." Well....what about God's justice? And this gets to the heart of a question I asked Cam recently since he, too, believes God's love is unconditional. Perhaps you'll take a shot at an answer? I asked: Since God [supposedly] loves each and every person in this world unconditionally, i.e. just the way we all are regardless of or spiritual/moral condition, then why didn't he, out of that love, simply forgive all of us instead of sending Jesus to atone for the sins of men? You just said as much above by appealing to God's love as the reason why he would never condemn those who died who never had a real knowledge of good and evil.
Also, Mat 7:7 doesn't teach anything about man's conscience -- which is as corrupt as all our other faculties. In fact, I could argue that the sons of men are "wee bit biased" when it comes to accusing themselves of wrongdoing! The problem with the world isn't you or me -- it's everyone else, don't you know?
And, yes, the bible does address what happens to those who die without having a true knowledge of good and evil. But look how quick you are to provide your one-trick pony answer to this problem...to paraphrase: "Well, God's love would never let any such persons to be condemned eternally." Well....what about God's justice? And this gets to the heart of a question I asked Cam recently since he, too, believes God's love is unconditional. Perhaps you'll take a shot at an answer? I asked: Since God [supposedly] loves each and every person in this world unconditionally, i.e. just the way we all are regardless of or spiritual/moral condition, then why didn't he, out of that love, simply forgive all of us instead of sending Jesus to atone for the sins of men? You just said as much above by appealing to God's love as the reason why he would never condemn those who died who never had a real knowledge of good and evil.
Also, Mat 7:7 doesn't teach anything about man's conscience -- which is as corrupt as all our other faculties. In fact, I could argue that the sons of men are "wee bit biased" when it comes to accusing themselves of wrongdoing! The problem with the world isn't you or me -- it's everyone else, don't you know?
God's love and justice were not addressed by you. The real issue is God covenantal, conditional love for his elect and his holy hatred for ALL that is evil!
And what if forgiving sin unconditionally "abets" sin? Isn't God's love eternal? Are you saying that sin is greater than God's eternal, unconditional love -- from which its objects can NEVER be separated (Rom 8:39)?
You still haven't answered my questions: Since you claim that God loves all men, regardless of their standing with Him and irrespective of their current spiritual condition, then why did God have to send his only Begotten Son into this world to atone for sin? Is it not written that "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8)? If this is true of the saints' love on the horizontal level, then how much more should it be for God's unconditional love on the vertical level whereby he loves sinners at least as much as he does the righteous! And maybe in your universe even more!
Also, did God love Jesus unconditionally?
And there's the issue sinners dying physically who were never aware of sin. You still haven't shown me from scripture how God could be just in allowing the very young or the mentally or emotionally handicapped to die. Isn't the wages of sin death!? But these people never knew they were sinners -- they never had a true knowledge of good and evil, so how could God allow them to die before attaining to a real knowledge of good and evil? And moreover, where do they go when they die? If you say, "heaven", then what is the judicial basis that God uses to allow them into his holy presence? Psalm 15 clearly tells us who may dwell in God's holy presence but the very young and the incompetent would not qualify for the obvious reasons stated in the Psalm.
Mat 7:7 doesn't say anything about God enabling sinners to repent and seek His salvation. Why do you continually read your presuppositions into scripture? Don't you realize that you're adding to God's Word, which is detestable to God!? And how ironic you appeal to God's enabling power when you do not believe for a nanosecond that his power that enables is efficacious. How totally duplicitous you are! Everyone here knows that you believe man's will is the final determinant in man's eternal destiny! The buck stops with the sinner, not God! So, why now do you pretend that God's enabling power is suddenly efficacious?
You truly have no shame, do you?
And what if forgiving sin unconditionally "abets" sin? Isn't God's love eternal? Are you saying that sin is greater than God's eternal, unconditional love -- from which its objects can NEVER be separated (Rom 8:39)?
You still haven't answered my questions: Since you claim that God loves all men, regardless of their standing with Him and irrespective of their current spiritual condition, then why did God have to send his only Begotten Son into this world to atone for sin? Is it not written that "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8)? If this is true of the saints' love on the horizontal level, then how much more should it be for God's unconditional love on the vertical level whereby he loves sinners at least as much as he does the righteous! And maybe in your universe even more!
Also, did God love Jesus unconditionally?
And there's the issue sinners dying physically who were never aware of sin. You still haven't shown me from scripture how God could be just in allowing the very young or the mentally or emotionally handicapped to die. Isn't the wages of sin death!? But these people never knew they were sinners -- they never had a true knowledge of good and evil, so how could God allow them to die before attaining to a real knowledge of good and evil? And moreover, where do they go when they die? If you say, "heaven", then what is the judicial basis that God uses to allow them into his holy presence? Psalm 15 clearly tells us who may dwell in God's holy presence but the very young and the incompetent would not qualify for the obvious reasons stated in the Psalm.
Mat 7:7 doesn't say anything about God enabling sinners to repent and seek His salvation. Why do you continually read your presuppositions into scripture? Don't you realize that you're adding to God's Word, which is detestable to God!? And how ironic you appeal to God's enabling power when you do not believe for a nanosecond that his power that enables is efficacious. How totally duplicitous you are! Everyone here knows that you believe man's will is the final determinant in man's eternal destiny! The buck stops with the sinner, not God! So, why now do you pretend that God's enabling power is suddenly efficacious?
You truly have no shame, do you?