Understanding God’s election

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Oct 19, 2024
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Quote me chapter and verse that says that God foresaw sinners' repentance and faith and as a REACTION or RESPONSE to that acquired knowledge by an omniscient God, God ratified sinners' election of him first by electing them in return.



I have no idea what you just said about Satan. God will love the Evil One even though he has nothing in Christ?

And I take it that you believe God will love all the damned for all eternity in spite of the two passages I quoted that say differently?
Yes, I believe God loves everyone, and you believe God hates most.
That is how we interpret GW differently.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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An obvious question to ask when speaking about God's requirement for salvation is,
“What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?”
(which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
If God loves the world (JN 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2TM 2:4),
then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated
by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls
on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received.

Three ways God/Christ is encountered include:

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
It is better to understand Scripture as teaching God loves and offers salvation to everyone
than as teaching God hates sinners and condemns them to suffer in hell for eternity.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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An obvious question to ask when speaking about God's requirement for salvation is,
“What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?”
(which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
If God loves the world (JN 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2TM 2:4),
then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated
by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls
on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received.

Three ways God/Christ is encountered include:

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.
You still haven't answered Roger's question. Saving Faith does NOT come by star-gazing or contemplating this natural, temporal order.
Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide, since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened (1Tim 4:2; Rom 1:28; Eph 4:19).

Let's take this a step further: What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?

And we can drill down even deeper in this question: How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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It is better to understand Scripture as teaching God loves and offers salvation to everyone
than as teaching God hates sinners and condemns them to suffer in hell for eternity.
In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. Yet, Paul said that he taught the full counsel of God -- not just the passages that tickled his fancy. Also, you ignore Solomon's exhortation to avoid all extremes, which is impossible to do when you purposely reject or omit or ignore passages that don't tickle your own ears.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Yes, I believe God loves everyone, and you believe God hates most.
That is how we interpret GW differently.
Correct. How could God love everyone on the planet with his covenant of love when the vast majority of its people God never knew covenantally (in the filial sense) and will be condemned (Mat 7:23)? Did God cut a redemptive covenant that I'm unaware of with all mankind in the distributive sense? If you think so, point to the covenant in scripture and its terms.
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
I suggest you all stop speaking in acronyms and take the time to write out what you mean to say so that your posts are direct and easy to read.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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From the beginning and indeed the purpose of creation was predestined by God to save or elect all sinners who repented, sought salvation and became spiritually one with Christ via His grace through faith.

The Bible says that God loves and wants to save all sinners, but some foolishly resist His will and serve Satan, so they will reap just consequences in hell before being destroyed. If Satan is the most evil, then God will love him the longest before destroying his soul.
This is how love for the wicked is consistent or jibes with hell or just punishment of sins.
To the best of my knowledge there is no scripture that teaches that God predestined any of his purposes. He predestines PEOPLE, not purposes.

Secondly, I take it that you believe that all true saints of God are saved by Him as a result of their faith and repentance, correct? God does not repent and believe for anyone, right? I certainly believe that every one of God's elect exercised personal faith and repentance. But...where we differ substantially is that you believe that God's saving grace is a response to or a consequence of a sinner's faith and repentance; whereas I believe that a sinner's faith and repentance flows entirely from God's saving grace -- that faith and repentance is the inevitable result of such saving grace. Take this passage for example:

2 Tim 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling,
not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
ESV

It's important to note that in this particular text, Paul uses the term "works" in a very broad, sweeping, general sense. He did not qualify the term as he often does in other places, e.g. "works of the law". He's talking about any and all works. The NIV captures this unqualified sense of the term "works" quite nicely:

2 Tim 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life —
not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
NIV

Therefore, this one verse alone totally dismantles your Pelagian or Arminian idea that God's salvation flows from sinners' works of faith and repentance. In fact, Paul went on to say that God called us to a holy life because of his own purpose and grace. And this harmonizes quite nicely with the Reformed Tradition that understands that faith and repentance are gifts from God and that sinners consequently believe because God has graciously showered sinners with these gifts.

Yet, your heretical soteriology clearly implies that saving grace flows from sinners' faith and repentance -- things we have done! Therefore, in you scheme of soteriology you have God repaying sinners for their acts of faith and repentance -- a concept that militates strongly against this passage, which I expounded on a few days ago:

Rom 11:35
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"

NIV

Yet, this is what your false gospel implicitly teaches! God merely REACTS to or RESPONDS to: Man's choosing Him first, knowing Him first, loving Him first and last but by no means least -- man's faith repentance. THEN....God will save him. Don't forget in your soteriology man's will is the sole and final determinant of his eternal destiny. Therefore, it's man's faith and repentance that triggers God's subsequent saving grace. But this falsehood is clearly refuted by something else Paul told Timothy:

1 Tim 1:14
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly,
along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Therefore, a sinner's faith, repentance and love for God is a consequent of the grace of God that is poured out on every single elect sinner.
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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To the best of my knowledge there is no scripture that teaches that God predestined any of his purposes. He predestines PEOPLE, not purposes.

Secondly, I take it that you believe that all true saints of God are saved by Him as a result of their faith and repentance, correct? God does not repent and believe for anyone, right? I certainly believe that every one of God's elect exercised personal faith and repentance. But...where we differ substantially is that you believe that God's saving grace is a response to or a consequence of a sinner's faith and repentance; whereas I believe that a sinner's faith and repentance flows entirely from God's saving grace -- that faith and repentance is the inevitable result of such saving grace. Take this passage for example:

2 Tim 1:9
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling,
not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
ESV

It's important to note that in this particular text, Paul uses the term "works" in a very broad, sweeping, general sense. He did not qualify the term as he often does in other places, e.g. "works of the law". He's talking about any and all works. The NIV captures this unqualified sense of the term "works" quite nicely:

2 Tim 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life —
not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
NIV

Therefore, this one verse alone totally dismantles your Pelagian or Arminian idea that God's salvation flows from sinners' works of faith and repentance. In fact, Paul went on to say that God called us to a holy life because of his own purpose and grace. And this harmonizes quite nicely with the Reformed Tradition that understands that faith and repentance are gifts from God and that sinners consequently believe because God has graciously showered sinners with these gifts.

Yet, your heretical soteriology clearly implies that saving grace flows from sinners' faith and repentance -- things we have done! Therefore, in you scheme of soteriology you have God repaying sinners for their acts of faith and repentance -- a concept that militates strongly against this passage, which I expounded on a few days ago:

Rom 11:35
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"

NIV

Yet, this is what your false gospel implicitly teaches! God merely REACTS to or RESPONDS to: Man's choosing Him first, knowing Him first, loving Him first and last but by no means least -- man's faith repentance. THEN....God will save him. Don't forget in your soteriology man's will is the sole and final determinant of his eternal destiny. Therefore, it's man's faith and repentance that triggers God's subsequent saving grace. But this falsehood is clearly refuted by something else Paul told Timothy:

1 Tim 1:14
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly,
along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
NIV

Therefore, a sinner's faith, repentance and love for God is a consequent of the grace of God that is poured out on every single elect sinner.
Your knowledge is limited. God talks about predestination of his purposes.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Your knowledge is limited. God talks about predestination of his purposes.
I don't recall reading anything that speaks to WHAT God predestines -- only WHOM he predestined before the beginning of time. Expand my knowledge base, please, with chapter and verse.
 

bluejean_bible

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Oct 19, 2024
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Correct. How could God love everyone on the planet with his covenant of love when the vast majority of its people God never knew covenantally (in the filial sense) and will be condemned (Mat 7:23)? Did God cut a redemptive covenant that I'm unaware of with all mankind in the distributive sense? If you think so, point to the covenant in scripture and its terms.
Re "Saving Faith does NOT come by star-gazing or contemplating this natural, temporal order.": Paul begs to differ per Rom1:20.

Re "Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide": Yes, no mere mortal is infallible.

Re "since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened": Yes it can, but Jesus indicated it also can seek salvation in Matt7:7.

Re "What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?": The Bible does not provide the answer to this question, although given that God is loving they certainly would not go to hell, but on what basis would they qualify for heaven?

Re "How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?": Same answer as for the previous question.

Re "In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. ": ...than to tickle your ears with Scriptures interpreted as teaching God is cold, stern and unfeeling.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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I don't see anything in your "proof texts"
You don't know the meaning of proof text.

that speaks to God predestining his purposes. The foretelling aspect to prophecy has to do with God's eternal decrees of events which, of course, are fulfilled in space and time.
I believe you.
It's there and all through Scripture.

You'll deny that for your own reasons.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Re "Saving Faith does NOT come by star-gazing or contemplating this natural, temporal order.": Paul begs to differ per Rom1:20.

Re "Nor is man's conscience any kind of infallible or trustworthy guide": Yes, no mere mortal is infallible.

Re "since this is one of the faculties of the heart that is corrupted and can often become seared/hardened": Yes it can, but Jesus indicated it also can seek salvation in Matt7:7.

Re "What happens to all the souls who have died either at a very early age (not having a true knowledge of good and evil) or souls who died when they were mentally or emotionally incompetent (incapable of understanding the Gospel)?": The Bible does not provide the answer to this question, although given that God is loving they certainly would not go to hell, but on what basis would they qualify for heaven?

Re "How is it just of God to allow infants, babies, toddlers, etc. to die physically when they have no real knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, have no awareness of any sin?": Same answer as for the previous question.

Re "In other words, we're all supposed to be content with half truths! When you say "It is better to understand... what you really mean is that it's better to tickle our own ears with scriptures that give us warm, gushy, fuzzy feelings about God and our ourselves. ": ...than to tickle your ears with Scriptures interpreted as teaching God is cold, stern and unfeeling.
So, you don't like it when I do fair and balance and appeal to the WHOLE COUNSEL of God so that we can have a more accurate and true understanding of the nature of God's love? That doesn't speak very well to your spiritual condition, nor is your attitude God-honoring since ALL scripture is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, etc. (2Tim 3:16) -- and not just your pet verses. But it does speak strongly to your personal biases.

And, yes, the bible does address what happens to those who die without having a true knowledge of good and evil. But look how quick you are to provide your one-trick pony answer to this problem...to paraphrase: "Well, God's love would never let any such persons to be condemned eternally." Well....what about God's justice? And this gets to the heart of a question I asked Cam recently since he, too, believes God's love is unconditional. Perhaps you'll take a shot at an answer? I asked: Since God [supposedly] loves each and every person in this world unconditionally, i.e. just the way we all are regardless of or spiritual/moral condition, then why didn't he, out of that love, simply forgive all of us instead of sending Jesus to atone for the sins of men? You just said as much above by appealing to God's love as the reason why he would never condemn those who died who never had a real knowledge of good and evil.

Also, Mat 7:7 doesn't teach anything about man's conscience -- which is as corrupt as all our other faculties. In fact, I could argue that the sons of men are "wee bit biased" when it comes to accusing themselves of wrongdoing! The problem with the world isn't you or me -- it's everyone else, don't you know?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You don't know the meaning of proof text.

I believe you.
It's there and all through Scripture.

You'll deny that for your own reasons.
It's only "|there and all through Scripture" for practitioners of eisegesis -- which I don't do because that is forbidden in scripture.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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So, you don't like it when I do fair and balance and appeal to the WHOLE COUNSEL of God so that we can have a more accurate and true understanding of the nature of God's love? That doesn't speak very well to your spiritual condition, nor is your attitude God-honoring since ALL scripture is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, etc. (2Tim 3:16) -- and not just your pet verses. But it does speak strongly to your personal biases.

And, yes, the bible does address what happens to those who die without having a true knowledge of good and evil. But look how quick you are to provide your one-trick pony answer to this problem...to paraphrase: "Well, God's love would never let any such persons to be condemned eternally." Well....what about God's justice? And this gets to the heart of a question I asked Cam recently since he, too, believes God's love is unconditional. Perhaps you'll take a shot at an answer? I asked: Since God [supposedly] loves each and every person in this world unconditionally, i.e. just the way we all are regardless of or spiritual/moral condition, then why didn't he, out of that love, simply forgive all of us instead of sending Jesus to atone for the sins of men? You just said as much above by appealing to God's love as the reason why he would never condemn those who died who never had a real knowledge of good and evil.

Also, Mat 7:7 doesn't teach anything about man's conscience -- which is as corrupt as all our other faculties. In fact, I could argue that the sons of men are "wee bit biased" when it comes to accusing themselves of wrongdoing! The problem with the world isn't you or me -- it's everyone else, don't you know?
I love applying all of GW to issues, and my harmonization speaks better of God than yours,
because I have explained how God is both loving and just.

Forgiving sin unconditionally abets sin.

MT 7:7 indicates that God enables sinners to repent of corruption and seek salvation.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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I love applying all of GW to issues, and my harmonization speaks better of God than yours,
because I have explained how God is both loving and just.

Forgiving sin unconditionally abets sin.

MT 7:7 indicates that God enables sinners to repent of corruption and seek salvation.
God's love and justice were not addressed by you. The real issue is God covenantal, conditional love for his elect and his holy hatred for ALL that is evil!

And what if forgiving sin unconditionally "abets" sin? Isn't God's love eternal? Are you saying that sin is greater than God's eternal, unconditional love -- from which its objects can NEVER be separated (Rom 8:39)?

You still haven't answered my questions: Since you claim that God loves all men, regardless of their standing with Him and irrespective of their current spiritual condition, then why did God have to send his only Begotten Son into this world to atone for sin? Is it not written that "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8)? If this is true of the saints' love on the horizontal level, then how much more should it be for God's unconditional love on the vertical level whereby he loves sinners at least as much as he does the righteous! And maybe in your universe even more!

Also, did God love Jesus unconditionally?

And there's the issue sinners dying physically who were never aware of sin. You still haven't shown me from scripture how God could be just in allowing the very young or the mentally or emotionally handicapped to die. Isn't the wages of sin death!? But these people never knew they were sinners -- they never had a true knowledge of good and evil, so how could God allow them to die before attaining to a real knowledge of good and evil? And moreover, where do they go when they die? If you say, "heaven", then what is the judicial basis that God uses to allow them into his holy presence? Psalm 15 clearly tells us who may dwell in God's holy presence but the very young and the incompetent would not qualify for the obvious reasons stated in the Psalm.

Mat 7:7 doesn't say anything about God enabling sinners to repent and seek His salvation. Why do you continually read your presuppositions into scripture? Don't you realize that you're adding to God's Word, which is detestable to God!? And how ironic you appeal to God's enabling power when you do not believe for a nanosecond that his power that enables is efficacious. How totally duplicitous you are! Everyone here knows that you believe man's will is the final determinant in man's eternal destiny! The buck stops with the sinner, not God! So, why now do you pretend that God's enabling power is suddenly efficacious?

You truly have no shame, do you?
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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It's only "|there and all through Scripture" for practitioners of eisegesis -- which I don't do because that is forbidden in scripture.
Your contrarian agenda is worthy of pity.

While it is a blessing that,though you won't see it,you've just told us you are here to berate Scripture. And lead people to disbelieve God's words.