Continuationism vs cessastionism?
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4. Cessationism is not a product of the Enlightenment.
Perhaps the easiest way to demonstrate this final point is to cite pre-Enlightenment Christian leaders who held to a cessationist position. It is, after all, difficult to argue that John Chrysostom’s fourth-century theology was a result of 18th-century European rationalism.
In bringing this blog post to a close then, here are ten leaders from church history to consider:
John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):
This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place.
(Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 36.7. Chrysostom is commenting on 1 Cor 12:1–2 and introducing the entire chapter. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 146.)
Augustine (354–430):
In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away.
(Source: Augustine, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, 6.10. Cf. Schaff, NPNF, First Series, 7:497–98.)
Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):
In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.
(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1, 7. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).
Note: Proponents of continuationism, like Jon Ruthven (in his work, On the Cessation of the Charismata), also acknowledge cessationist views in other church fathers (like Origen in the 3rd century, and Ambrosiaster in the 4th century).
Additionally, to this list, we could include the most well-known name of the middle ages, the 13th-century scholastic, Thomas Aquinas.
But let’s jump ahead to the Reformation and Puritan eras.
Martin Luther (1483–1546)
In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.
(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6.)
John Calvin (1509–1564):
Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity.
(Source: John Calvin, Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, III:389.)
The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, has vanished away in order to make the preaching of the Gospel marvellous for ever.
(Source: John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV:19, 18.)
John Owen (1616–1683):
Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.
(Source: John Owen, Works, IV:518.)
Thomas Watson (1620–1686):
Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.
(Source: Thomas Watson, The Beatitudes, 140.)
Matthew Henry (1662–1714):
What these gifts were is at large told us in the body of the chapter [1 Corinthians 12]; namely, extraordinary offices and powers, bestowed on ministers and Christians in the first ages, for conviction of unbelievers, and propagation of the gospel.
(Source: Matthew Henry, Complete Commentary, in reference to 1 Corinthians 12.)
The gift of tongues was one new product of the spirit of prophecy and given for a particular reason, that, the Jewish pale being taken down, all nations might be brought into the church. These and other gifts of prophecy, being a sign, have long since ceased and been laid aside, and we have no encouragement to expect the revival of them; but, on the contrary, are directed to call the scriptures the more sure word of prophecy, more sure than voices from heaven; and to them we are directed to take heed, to search them, and to hold them fast, 2 Peter 1:29.
(Source: Matthew Henry, Preface to Vol. IV of his Exposition of OT & NT, vii.)
John Gill (1697–1771):
[Commenting on 1 Corinthians 12:9 and 30,]
Now these gifts were bestowed in common, by the Spirit, on apostles, prophets, and pastors, or elders of the church, in those early times: the Alexandrian copy, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, “by one Spirit”.
(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:9.)
No; when these gifts were in being, all had them not. When anointing with oil, in order to heal the sick, was in use, it was only performed by the elders of the church, not by the common members of it, who were to be sent for by the sick on this occasion.
(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:30.)
Jonathan Edwards (1703–1758):
In the days of his [Jesus’] flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of the apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles.
But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church. For there was now completed an established written revelation of the mind and will of God, wherein God had fully recorded a standing and all-sufficient rule for his church in all ages. And the Jewish church and nation being overthrown, and the Christian church and the last dispensation of the church of God being established, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed, and therefore they ceased; for though they had been continued in the church for so many ages, yet then they failed, and God caused them to fail because there was no further occasion for them. And so was fulfilled the saying of the text, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” And now there seems to be an end to all such fruits of the Spirit as these, and we have no reason to expect them any more.
(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Sermon entitled, “The Holy Spirit Forever To Be Communicated To The Saints, In The Grace Of Charity, Or Divine Love” on 1 Corinthians 13:8.)
“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given ‘in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.”
(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Charity and its Fruits, 29.)
To this list, we could add other names: James Buchanan, R. L. Dabney, Charles Spurgeon, George Smeaton, Abraham Kuyper, William G. T. Shedd, B. B. Warfield, A. W. Pink, and so on. But, admittedly, they are post-Enlightenment historical figures.
So I guess we’ll have to save their testimony for a different post.
The Bottom Line: What Cessationism Is Not - The Cessationist Stink (Part 9)
Perhaps the easiest way to demonstrate this final point is to cite pre-Enlightenment Christian leaders who held to a cessationist position. It is, after all, difficult to argue that John Chrysostom’s fourth-century theology was a result of 18th-century European rationalism.
In bringing this blog post to a close then, here are ten leaders from church history to consider:
John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):
This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place.
(Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 36.7. Chrysostom is commenting on 1 Cor 12:1–2 and introducing the entire chapter. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 146.)
Augustine (354–430):
In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away.
(Source: Augustine, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, 6.10. Cf. Schaff, NPNF, First Series, 7:497–98.)
Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):
In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.
(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1, 7. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).
Note: Proponents of continuationism, like Jon Ruthven (in his work, On the Cessation of the Charismata), also acknowledge cessationist views in other church fathers (like Origen in the 3rd century, and Ambrosiaster in the 4th century).
Additionally, to this list, we could include the most well-known name of the middle ages, the 13th-century scholastic, Thomas Aquinas.
But let’s jump ahead to the Reformation and Puritan eras.
Martin Luther (1483–1546)
In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.
(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6.)
John Calvin (1509–1564):
Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity.
(Source: John Calvin, Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, III:389.)
The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, has vanished away in order to make the preaching of the Gospel marvellous for ever.
(Source: John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV:19, 18.)
John Owen (1616–1683):
Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.
(Source: John Owen, Works, IV:518.)
Thomas Watson (1620–1686):
Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.
(Source: Thomas Watson, The Beatitudes, 140.)
Matthew Henry (1662–1714):
What these gifts were is at large told us in the body of the chapter [1 Corinthians 12]; namely, extraordinary offices and powers, bestowed on ministers and Christians in the first ages, for conviction of unbelievers, and propagation of the gospel.
(Source: Matthew Henry, Complete Commentary, in reference to 1 Corinthians 12.)
The gift of tongues was one new product of the spirit of prophecy and given for a particular reason, that, the Jewish pale being taken down, all nations might be brought into the church. These and other gifts of prophecy, being a sign, have long since ceased and been laid aside, and we have no encouragement to expect the revival of them; but, on the contrary, are directed to call the scriptures the more sure word of prophecy, more sure than voices from heaven; and to them we are directed to take heed, to search them, and to hold them fast, 2 Peter 1:29.
(Source: Matthew Henry, Preface to Vol. IV of his Exposition of OT & NT, vii.)
John Gill (1697–1771):
[Commenting on 1 Corinthians 12:9 and 30,]
Now these gifts were bestowed in common, by the Spirit, on apostles, prophets, and pastors, or elders of the church, in those early times: the Alexandrian copy, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, “by one Spirit”.
(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:9.)
No; when these gifts were in being, all had them not. When anointing with oil, in order to heal the sick, was in use, it was only performed by the elders of the church, not by the common members of it, who were to be sent for by the sick on this occasion.
(Source: John Gill’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:30.)
Jonathan Edwards (1703–1758):
In the days of his [Jesus’] flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of the apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles.
But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church. For there was now completed an established written revelation of the mind and will of God, wherein God had fully recorded a standing and all-sufficient rule for his church in all ages. And the Jewish church and nation being overthrown, and the Christian church and the last dispensation of the church of God being established, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed, and therefore they ceased; for though they had been continued in the church for so many ages, yet then they failed, and God caused them to fail because there was no further occasion for them. And so was fulfilled the saying of the text, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” And now there seems to be an end to all such fruits of the Spirit as these, and we have no reason to expect them any more.
(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Sermon entitled, “The Holy Spirit Forever To Be Communicated To The Saints, In The Grace Of Charity, Or Divine Love” on 1 Corinthians 13:8.)
“Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given ‘in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.”
(Source: Jonathan Edwards, Charity and its Fruits, 29.)
To this list, we could add other names: James Buchanan, R. L. Dabney, Charles Spurgeon, George Smeaton, Abraham Kuyper, William G. T. Shedd, B. B. Warfield, A. W. Pink, and so on. But, admittedly, they are post-Enlightenment historical figures.
So I guess we’ll have to save their testimony for a different post.
The Bottom Line: What Cessationism Is Not - The Cessationist Stink (Part 9)
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Ok lets say you have faith....is it enough to save you? its faith that saves a man...right?
then do you have enough faith to heal someone? if not, are you saved? seems rather doubtful right?
why would you doubt you could heal someone and believe in heaven? and the gospel? i dont think u can.
Ok do you have kids? what happens if they are sick? you wouldnt take them to a doctor would you?
that would be outright faithlessness wouldnt it? hows your salvation status now?
Also it appears you consider faith as a thing we muster....like weightlifting.
Why would the bible say Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
Why is it listed as a fruit and a gift? And if it isnt a thing we muster in
ourselves and we dont have faith enough to heal, how can you have enough
faith for salvation?
This is the conundrum folks get into not understanding the word, the will and power
of God. The answers to these questions are in the word of God. Rightlydivided.
Ok lets say you have faith....is it enough to save you? its faith that saves a man...right?
then do you have enough faith to heal someone? if not, are you saved? seems rather doubtful right?
why would you doubt you could heal someone and believe in heaven? and the gospel? i dont think u can.
Ok do you have kids? what happens if they are sick? you wouldnt take them to a doctor would you?
that would be outright faithlessness wouldnt it? hows your salvation status now?
Also it appears you consider faith as a thing we muster....like weightlifting.
Why would the bible say Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
Why is it listed as a fruit and a gift? And if it isnt a thing we muster in
ourselves and we dont have faith enough to heal, how can you have enough
faith for salvation?
This is the conundrum folks get into not understanding the word, the will and power
of God. The answers to these questions are in the word of God. Rightlydivided.
Self doubt or lack of faith is the biggest reason why we fail when we attempt to achieve anything!
I do have children 3 in fact 2 boys and a girl and heres the funny thing haven't been to a doctor or hospital in many years on thier behalf for ANYTHING.
Can't say that about myself yet my own illnesses was a direct cause of my own lack of faith and sinning greatly before God which I repent greatly for even to this day!
Faith is similar to weight lifting in the respect that if we practice it daily our faith becomes stronger.
I will tell you a true short story to make my point. All my life I have been involved in Forestry work of 1 description or another since I was 7. My good friend Carl and his brother likewise. Carl is now 72 and still works in the bush most every day but the sabbath. One day as it happened Carl's brother John had a mishap with a chainsaw and cut his leg very badly and was losing so much blood no one present yours truly included thought he would even make it to the skidder let alone to the truck 4 miles away through very thick bush and hilly terrain or the nearest hospital which was 35 miles away. When this happened Carl went over to his brother and said a prayer which he later said he had found in the bible on the sabbath 3 days earlier, when he knelt down beside John and put his hand on his leg he said that prayer and the blood flow stopped immediately right there on that rocky knoll in the bush. He made it to the skidder and then to the truck at the landing and then to the hospital for a total of 39 miles of travel with the main artery in his left leg severed. It was only when he was on the table in the hospital that the blood began to floww again profusely while the doctors and nurses worked on him. John is very much alive today and all the doctors and nurses who were involved with John that day could not tell us why the blood flow stopped citing that it had to be a miracle of some kind.To cut the femoral artery in a hospital on the table is extremely risky and usually results in death let alone 39 miles into the bush with nothing but FAITH to save you.
I know there will be those who read this and say ahh B.S.and truly I do not care if they do or do not believe me, I am no liar and tell you this story in hopes it will elevate your own level of faith.
This is but 1 story I could pull out of my very colourful life that substantiates what I am saying and what Jesus told us almost 2000 years ago. You can tear it apart and try to gainsay what I have told you but it doesn't matter to me because I have witnessed it personally along with many other occurences in similar fashion. When your in the bush there are only two people you can rely on Yourself and God no one else!
Selah
I do have children 3 in fact 2 boys and a girl and heres the funny thing haven't been to a doctor or hospital in many years on thier behalf for ANYTHING.
Can't say that about myself yet my own illnesses was a direct cause of my own lack of faith and sinning greatly before God which I repent greatly for even to this day!
Faith is similar to weight lifting in the respect that if we practice it daily our faith becomes stronger.
I will tell you a true short story to make my point. All my life I have been involved in Forestry work of 1 description or another since I was 7. My good friend Carl and his brother likewise. Carl is now 72 and still works in the bush most every day but the sabbath. One day as it happened Carl's brother John had a mishap with a chainsaw and cut his leg very badly and was losing so much blood no one present yours truly included thought he would even make it to the skidder let alone to the truck 4 miles away through very thick bush and hilly terrain or the nearest hospital which was 35 miles away. When this happened Carl went over to his brother and said a prayer which he later said he had found in the bible on the sabbath 3 days earlier, when he knelt down beside John and put his hand on his leg he said that prayer and the blood flow stopped immediately right there on that rocky knoll in the bush. He made it to the skidder and then to the truck at the landing and then to the hospital for a total of 39 miles of travel with the main artery in his left leg severed. It was only when he was on the table in the hospital that the blood began to floww again profusely while the doctors and nurses worked on him. John is very much alive today and all the doctors and nurses who were involved with John that day could not tell us why the blood flow stopped citing that it had to be a miracle of some kind.To cut the femoral artery in a hospital on the table is extremely risky and usually results in death let alone 39 miles into the bush with nothing but FAITH to save you.
I know there will be those who read this and say ahh B.S.and truly I do not care if they do or do not believe me, I am no liar and tell you this story in hopes it will elevate your own level of faith.
This is but 1 story I could pull out of my very colourful life that substantiates what I am saying and what Jesus told us almost 2000 years ago. You can tear it apart and try to gainsay what I have told you but it doesn't matter to me because I have witnessed it personally along with many other occurences in similar fashion. When your in the bush there are only two people you can rely on Yourself and God no one else!
Selah
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Why would i want to dis an answer to prayer? Shifting to many types of things into a convo just
makes it rather difficult to keep a theme, but thats ok. So God answered a prayer. He does that
when He chooses to according to His will and good pleasure. Im glad He did in this case.
These things happen all the time. and have in my life. I used to have a big tumor on my neck...plus
many stories of Gods intervention in my life.
But we were in a different verse, talking about something different, and you slid off into faith healing
now your talking of a notable blessing and answer to prayer. But if he had been healed he wouldnt
have had to go to the doctor, his leg would have just been made whole.
How we define faith and how our confidence in it grows as we walk with the Lord, can be thought
of wrongly, and taught wrongly. Sometimes it is hurtful to a persons understanding, sometimes not.
When it is it can cause very many problems in a persons walk. And actually hurt that confidence.
But ill repeat. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
makes it rather difficult to keep a theme, but thats ok. So God answered a prayer. He does that
when He chooses to according to His will and good pleasure. Im glad He did in this case.
These things happen all the time. and have in my life. I used to have a big tumor on my neck...plus
many stories of Gods intervention in my life.
But we were in a different verse, talking about something different, and you slid off into faith healing
now your talking of a notable blessing and answer to prayer. But if he had been healed he wouldnt
have had to go to the doctor, his leg would have just been made whole.
How we define faith and how our confidence in it grows as we walk with the Lord, can be thought
of wrongly, and taught wrongly. Sometimes it is hurtful to a persons understanding, sometimes not.
When it is it can cause very many problems in a persons walk. And actually hurt that confidence.
But ill repeat. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
1st of all that would have to happen! Since it hasn't I will not conjecture on it period. For this is where sin and doubt lie and if we dwell on such issues we make them happen. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF YOUR OWN WILL COMBINED WITH FAITH IN GOD. This is exactly what the early church did in its attempts to maintain its own supremacy among men rather than bring men unto God!
2nd I did not slide off at all this is about the continuation of the gifts and if prayers are answered then the gifts never ceased any other arguement is hyperbole put forth to discredit the workings of personal faith and to maintain an Earthly realm over the men under them and who claimed to be the sole perpetrators of the faith it's not true .
2nd I did not slide off at all this is about the continuation of the gifts and if prayers are answered then the gifts never ceased any other arguement is hyperbole put forth to discredit the workings of personal faith and to maintain an Earthly realm over the men under them and who claimed to be the sole perpetrators of the faith it's not true .
NAY!
it was a direct analogous referrence to the disciples lack of faith as their inability to cast out demons from a man in the NT when they asked Jesus why they couldn't cast them out.
We could try Moving Mt. Shasta to next to your House but where would your neighbours live then?
Perhaps we should ask for something not so self motivated?
Selah
it was a direct analogous referrence to the disciples lack of faith as their inability to cast out demons from a man in the NT when they asked Jesus why they couldn't cast them out.
We could try Moving Mt. Shasta to next to your House but where would your neighbours live then?
Perhaps we should ask for something not so self motivated?
Selah
I fear none but the Lord he is my shield and exceeding great reward.
I wish you would make your point though as if I didn't think it was going towards the whole pandemic innoculation arena anyway yes as was I and probably yourself for typhus cp etc. are you next gonna tell me this is the matk of the beast?
I wish you would make your point though as if I didn't think it was going towards the whole pandemic innoculation arena anyway yes as was I and probably yourself for typhus cp etc. are you next gonna tell me this is the matk of the beast?
Hey Doc. pickingill Just for your own benefit I will tell you Children get vaccinated in Canada due to civil law thats right the Law your child cannot attend a public school in Canada without being vaccinated period so your obvious attempt at drawing me in to an argument you obviously no nothing about failed again next?
No I would not given the choice and no your last line once again is ill founded in the belief that My children and wife need never be sick again because of my own personal faith in God
Job had abundant faith in God! Did that stop Satan from torturing him with plagues pestilence and the loss of his entire family? NO
Next?
Job had abundant faith in God! Did that stop Satan from torturing him with plagues pestilence and the loss of his entire family? NO
Next?