Another look at John 10.

[PaulThomson]

The other dude inadvertently made a great point.
What repenting did the lost coin do? It is the SEEKER that looks for it until it is found.

Would the Prodigal son have stayed away if God didn't discipline him and allow him to go through very rough times?
Suppose he invested part of his inheritance, and NEVER ran out, continued his prodigal living. Would he have EVER came to his senses and returned? Or was it God's discipline on His child that opened his eyes?

This is the problem with interpreting parables so literally that we impose foolish equations that nullify the actual equations.

We have Jesus telling three parables about three ways a person can become estranged from God. The lost sheep, the lost coin and the wayward son.

The lost sheep depicts a person who becomes distracted by his environment, and does not keep God in his thoughts and wanders off pursuing a life that does not include God any more. That person needs to be sought out by a pastor-hearted person, who will gain their trust and lead them to repent and put God back in their knowledge.

The lost coin depicts a person who is neglected by the church (the woman) and becomes mislaid and isolated from the church and self-absorbed. The church needs to go looking for such a "lost treasure" until the church loves them into repentance away from self-absorption and self-pity to relational living within the church community, serving and being served, loving and being loved.

The wayward son depicts a person who understands the blessing of God in Christ: the promise of health, forgiveness, wealth and deliverance, but becomes focussed on inheriting and enjoying these for themselves: those who gravitate into the extreme prosperity and triumphalist gospel. They are like the Israelites who were already allotted their inheritance, and chose not fight with the other tribes to help them gain their inheritances also, but chose to stay on their own inheritance and enjoy and accumulate blessings to themselves. Such selfishness leads to sinful indulgences and eventual public shame. When they repent from their betrayal of the family of God and come to their senses and humble themselves to become willing servants of the family of God, they are restored intimacy with the father.

The sheep is forgetting God and rthe rest of the flock, and is relating to other things in the environment apart from God and the flock. The coin is not relating to anyone, neither God nor the woman, but is self-contained. The wayward son is not relating to the father or the household, but is focussed on enjoying now the blessings of his inheritance within the family which should be largely deferred until later. All of these attitudes need to be turned around to a healthier focus. That turning around is repentance and re-established a right relationship with God and the family of God.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

These are illustrations of Messiah who came seeking the lost. Not all repented.

Re: the coin, here's your answer: 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Lk. 15:10 NKJ)

Right? Isn't it weird how they missed that???? It's staring them right in the face!


🎻

 

[studier]

Right? Isn't it weird how they missed that???? It's staring them right in the face!

🎻

Selective reading is always a problem. It's also like @PaulThomson says here:

This is the problem with interpreting parables so literally that we impose foolish equations that nullify the actual equations.

 

[PennEd]

These are illustrations of Messiah who came seeking the lost. Not all repented.

Re: the coin, here's your answer: 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Lk. 15:10 NKJ)

Congratulations!

You win!

God will toss you into hell for all eternity if you wander away! He won't discipline you. He won't search for you. He won't draw you back. You can just rely on yourself.

The rest of us will believe Him, his Word, and trust HIM to save us in any and every situation.

We'll miss ya!

Good work.

 

[studier]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

NKJ John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes (cleans), that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, you believe there are only genuine believers and not-genuine believers as you depict above. Do you also sometimes refer to not-genuine believers as nominal believers, meaning in name only?
• Re: “in Me” that Jesus speaks of in 15:2, 4, 5, 6
  • What do you think “in Me” means?
  • Why do you think Jesus is commanding those 11 who are already clean to remain in Him
    • Note: “clean” in 15:3 is the same word Jesus uses in 15:2 when He says the Father “prunes” – so it seems those Jesus is speaking to have already been pruned/cleansed.
  • Where do you see in the Text the concept of “self-attached” being “in Me” as Jesus explains the interconnected relationship of the vine and the branches – both productive (“genuine”) and non-productive (“self-attached”) branches?
• Re: Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit:
  • Since He says nothing, then isn’t your argument that a productive branch cannot become unproductive also an argument from silence?
• Re: Judas being self-attached and a not-genuine believer:
  • How does a self-attached not-genuine believer become “in Me” (assuming you’ve already answered what “in Me” means)?
  • How is “in Me” that meaningful if anyone can self-attach?
    • Is it only remaining “in Me” that is meaningful?
  • Jesus says the Father gave Judas to Him and that Jesus lost Judas (John17:12)
    • Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
  • Jesus says He chose Judas for Apostleship (Luke6:13-16)
    • Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
  • Scripture says several negative things about Judas.
    • Does Scripture ever tell us he never believed?

You posted a lot. I’ll take it a bit at a time as I have time.

 

[studier]

Congratulations!

You win!

God will toss you into hell for all eternity if you wander away! He won't discipline you. He won't search for you. He won't draw you back. You can just rely on yourself.

The rest of us will believe Him, his Word, and trust HIM to save us in any and every situation.

We'll miss ya!

Good work.

You're still negating the need for and ability of the required repentance.

So, this silly conclusion is consistent with your inability to understand the need for repentance and to see and believe in the message of the Text, IOW believe Him.

 

[studier]

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Firstly, what does Robertson mean by "cosmic"?

Note that Jesus referring to Judas is "Probably" so uncertain. If Judas is being referred to, then my questions about him in my previous post are applicable.

If you're trying to make a case against genuine believers potentially failing to abide as commanded, then you should have read more from the link you provided (Thanks for providing it BTW. It shows some integrity).

The following quotes are from the same page you referenced for us:

Continuing re: John15:2 after the excerpt you provided above. The underlined portions and any colored text in Robertson's text are my highlighting. The bulleted comments are mine:

Cleanseth (καθαιρε). Present active indicative of old verb καθαιρω (clean) as in verse John 15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though καθαριζω is more frequent (Hebrews 10:2).

That it may bear more fruit (ινα καρπον πλειονα φερη). Purpose clause with ινα and present active subjunctive of φερω, "that it may keep on bearing more fruit" (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.

• Robertson seems to be telling us that bearing more and more fruit is a good test to see if Christians and church members are truly cleansed and abiding.

Verse 4

Abide in me (μεινατε εν εμο). Constative aorist active imperative of μενω. The only way to continue "clean" (pruned) and to bear fruit is to maintain vital spiritual connexion with Christ (the vine). Judas is gone and Satan will sift the rest of them like wheat (Luke 22:31). Blind complacency is a peril to the preacher.

• This constative aorist command to abide means abiding must be continuous
• As Robertson says, "complacency is a peril"
• Taken together he seems to be telling us that there is no room in the Christian life for complacency for the preacher who is preaching to Christians and thus to Christians either. Complacency and continuous abiding are antithetical.
• Note how Robertson is picking up the sifting of these Apostles he says will take place after this instruction by Jesus

Of itself (αφ' εαυτου). As source (from itself) and apart from the vine (cf. John 17:17).

Except it abide (εαν μη μενη). Condition of third class with εαν, negative μη, and present active (keep on abiding) subjunctive of μενω. Same condition and tense in the application, "except ye abide in me."

• Christians cannot produce fruit unless you keep on abiding in Christ.
• This third-class condition language coupled with the comments re: complacency and the identifications of the constative command and continuous present tense verbs are showing us that Robertson likely sees some contingency in this subjunctive verb "keep on abiding". IOW it seems to me his explanations and the nature of the third-class condition and the "except/unless you keep on abiding in Me" are saying to be very cautious of failure to abide.

Verse 5

Ye the branches (υμεις τα κληματα). Jesus repeats and applies the metaphor of verse John 15:1.

Apart from me (χωρις εμου). See Ephesians 2:12 for χωρις Χριστου. There is nothing for a broken off branch to do but wither and die. For the cosmic relation of Christ see John 1:3 (χωρις αυτου).

• I may well be wrong but by pointing us to John1:3 Roberston seems to be saying every man has a cosmic connection to Jesus Christ through creation of the kosmos. If so, then he seems to be saying that all men are expected by their Creator to be productive. If so, then he seems to be saying the only way to be productive is to remain "in Christ" which assumes believing in Him.

Verse 6

He is cast forth (εβληθη εξω). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of βαλλω as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also verses John 15:4; John 15:7 for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive μεινητε and μεινη in verse John 15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption. Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.

• This is as far as I'm going to take this. Anybody who cares to can read the rest of what Robertson says at the link you provided.
• The highlighted portion of Robetson's statement above is very clear. Here's how I read it:
  • The Apostles are vividly warned not to presume they play no part in this relationship with Jesus Christ.
  • JESUS CHRIST WILL FULFILL HIS PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS THE APOSTLES DO THEIR PART AND REMAIN IN VITAL UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST AS COMMANDED.

As a branch (ως το κλημα).

And is withered (εξηρανθη). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of ξηραινω, same timeless use in James 1:11 of grass, old and common verb. They gather (συναγουσιν). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.


IMO, Robertson clearly stands on the side of the potentiality of Christians to not abide as commanded and warned. He clearly makes the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ conditional nit only by his statement under v.6 above highlighted, but also by his interpretation of verb tenses and grammatical structures.

I'm seeing a lot of problems with your post @mailmandan

 

[mailmandan]

Firstly, what does Robertson mean by "cosmic"?

Note that Jesus referring to Judas is "Probably" so uncertain. If Judas is being referred to, then my questions about him in my previous post are applicable.

If you're trying to make a case against genuine believers potentially failing to abide as commanded, then you should have read more from the link you provided (Thanks for providing it BTW. It shows some integrity).

The following quotes are from the same page you referenced for us:

Continuing re: John15:2 after the excerpt you provided above. The underlined portions and any colored text in Robertson's text are my highlighting. The bulleted comments are mine:

Cleanseth (καθαιρε). Present active indicative of old verb καθαιρω (clean) as in verse John 15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though καθαριζω is more frequent (Hebrews 10:2).

That it may bear more fruit (ινα καρπον πλειονα φερη). Purpose clause with ινα and present active subjunctive of φερω, "that it may keep on bearing more fruit" (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.

• Robertson seems to be telling us that bearing more and more fruit is a good test to see if Christians and church members are truly cleansed and abiding.

Verse 4

Abide in me (μεινατε εν εμο). Constative aorist active imperative of μενω. The only way to continue "clean" (pruned) and to bear fruit is to maintain vital spiritual connexion with Christ (the vine). Judas is gone and Satan will sift the rest of them like wheat (Luke 22:31). Blind complacency is a peril to the preacher.

• This constative aorist command to abide means abiding must be continuous
• As Robertson says, "complacency is a peril"
• Taken together he seems to be telling us that there is no room in the Christian life for the preacher who is preaching to Christians and thus to Christians either. Complacency and continuous abiding are antithetical.
• Note how Robertson is picking up the sifting of these Apostles he says will take place after this instruction by Jesus

Of itself (αφ' εαυτου). As source (from itself) and apart from the vine (cf. John 17:17).

Except it abide (εαν μη μενη). Condition of third class with εαν, negative μη, and present active (keep on abiding) subjunctive of μενω. Same condition and tense in the application, "except ye abide in me."

• Christians cannot produce fruit unless you keep on abiding in Christ.
• This third-class condition language coupled with the comments re: complacency and the identifications of the constative command and continuous present tense verbs are showing us that Robertson likely sees some contingency in this subjunctive verb "keep on abiding". IOW it seems to me his explanations and the nature of the third-class condition and the "except/unless you keep on abiding in Me" are saying to be very cautious of failure to abide.

Verse 5

Ye the branches (υμεις τα κληματα). Jesus repeats and applies the metaphor of verse John 15:1.

Apart from me (χωρις εμου). See Ephesians 2:12 for χωρις Χριστου. There is nothing for a broken off branch to do but wither and die. For the cosmic relation of Christ see John 1:3 (χωρις αυτου).

• I may well be wrong but by pointing us to John1:3 Roberston seems to be saying every man has a cosmic connection to Jesus Christ through creation of the kosmos. If so, then he seems to be saying that all men are expected by their Creator to be productive. If so, then he seems to be saying the only way to be productive is to remain "in Christ" which assumes believing in Him.

Verse 6

He is cast forth (εβληθη εξω). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of βαλλω as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also verses John 15:4; John 15:7 for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive μεινητε and μεινη in verse John 15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption. Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.

• This is as far as I'm going to take this. Anybody who cares to can read the rest of what Robertson says at the link you provided.
• The highlighted portion of Robetson's statement above is very clear. Here's how I read it:
  • The Apostles are vividly warned not to presume they play no part in this relationship with Jesus Christ.
  • JESUS CHRIST WILL FULFILL HIS PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS THE APOSTLES DO THEIR PART AND REMAIN IN VITAL UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST AS COMMANDED.

As a branch (ως το κλημα).

And is withered (εξηρανθη). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of ξηραινω, same timeless use in James 1:11 of grass, old and common verb. They gather (συναγουσιν). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.

IMO, Robertson clearly stands on the side of the potentiality of Christians to not abide as commanded and warned. He clearly makes the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ conditional nit only by his statement under v.6 above highlighted, but also by his interpretation of verb tenses and grammatical structures.

I'm seeing a lot of problems with your post @mailmandan

Obviously, you and I do not see eye to eye on this and a mere cosmic connection (or a connection with no spiritual life) results in a branch that bears no fruit in contrast with a spiritual and vital connection that bears fruit. It sounds to me like you may not properly understand Robertson's teaching here.

AT Robertson was widely regarded as a great Greek scholar particularly of New Testament Greek. He was a prominent Southern Baptist preacher and biblical scholar, known for his extensive work on the Greek New Testament.

 

[PennEd]

You're still negating the need for and ability of the required repentance.

So, this silly conclusion is consistent with your inability to understand the need for repentance and to see and believe in the message of the Text, IOW believe Him.

Watch and learn young man.

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