Another look at John 10.

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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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The other dude inadvertently made a great point.
What repenting did the lost coin do? It is the SEEKER that looks for it until it is found.

Would the Prodigal son have stayed away if God didn't discipline him and allow him to go through very rough times?
Suppose he invested part of his inheritance, and NEVER ran out, continued his prodigal living. Would he have EVER came to his senses and returned? Or was it God's discipline on His child that opened his eyes?
This is the problem with interpreting parables so literally that we impose foolish equations that nullify the actual equations.

We have Jesus telling three parables about three ways a person can become estranged from God. The lost sheep, the lost coin and the wayward son.

The lost sheep depicts a person who becomes distracted by his environment, and does not keep God in his thoughts and wanders off pursuing a life that does not include God any more. That person needs to be sought out by a pastor-hearted person, who will gain their trust and lead them to repent and put God back in their knowledge.

The lost coin depicts a person who is neglected by the church (the woman) and becomes mislaid and isolated from the church and self-absorbed. The church needs to go looking for such a "lost treasure" until the church loves them into repentance away from self-absorption and self-pity to relational living within the church community, serving and being served, loving and being loved.

The wayward son depicts a person who understands the blessing of God in Christ: the promise of health, forgiveness, wealth and deliverance, but becomes focussed on inheriting and enjoying these for themselves: those who gravitate into the extreme prosperity and triumphalist gospel. They are like the Israelites who were already allotted their inheritance, and chose not fight with the other tribes to help them gain their inheritances also, but chose to stay on their own inheritance and enjoy and accumulate blessings to themselves. Such selfishness leads to sinful indulgences and eventual public shame. When they repent from their betrayal of the family of God and come to their senses and humble themselves to become willing servants of the family of God, they are restored intimacy with the father.

The sheep is forgetting God and rthe rest of the flock, and is relating to other things in the environment apart from God and the flock. The coin is not relating to anyone, neither God nor the woman, but is self-contained. The wayward son is not relating to the father or the household, but is focussed on enjoying now the blessings of his inheritance within the family which should be largely deferred until later. All of these attitudes need to be turned around to a healthier focus. That turning around is repentance and re-established a right relationship with God and the family of God.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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These are illustrations of Messiah who came seeking the lost. Not all repented.

Re: the coin, here's your answer: 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Lk. 15:10 NKJ)

Right? Isn't it weird how they missed that???? It's staring them right in the face!


🎻
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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These are illustrations of Messiah who came seeking the lost. Not all repented.

Re: the coin, here's your answer: 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." (Lk. 15:10 NKJ)
Congratulations!

You win!

God will toss you into hell for all eternity if you wander away! He won't discipline you. He won't search for you. He won't draw you back. You can just rely on yourself.

The rest of us will believe Him, his Word, and trust HIM to save us in any and every situation.

We'll miss ya!

Good work.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
NKJ John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes (cleans), that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
  • Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, you believe there are only genuine believers and not-genuine believers as you depict above. Do you also sometimes refer to not-genuine believers as nominal believers, meaning in name only?
  • Re: “in Me” that Jesus speaks of in 15:2, 4, 5, 6
    • What do you think “in Me” means?
    • Why do you think Jesus is commanding those 11 who are already clean to remain in Him
      • Note: “clean” in 15:3 is the same word Jesus uses in 15:2 when He says the Father “prunes” – so it seems those Jesus is speaking to have already been pruned/cleansed.
    • Where do you see in the Text the concept of “self-attached” being “in Me” as Jesus explains the interconnected relationship of the vine and the branches – both productive (“genuine”) and non-productive (“self-attached”) branches?
  • Re: Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit:
    • Since He says nothing, then isn’t your argument that a productive branch cannot become unproductive also an argument from silence?
  • Re: Judas being self-attached and a not-genuine believer:
    • How does a self-attached not-genuine believer become “in Me” (assuming you’ve already answered what “in Me” means)?
    • How is “in Me” that meaningful if anyone can self-attach?
      • Is it only remaining “in Me” that is meaningful?
    • Jesus says the Father gave Judas to Him and that Jesus lost Judas (John17:12)
      • Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
    • Jesus says He chose Judas for Apostleship (Luke6:13-16)
      • Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
    • Scripture says several negative things about Judas.
      • Does Scripture ever tell us he never believed?
You posted a lot. I’ll take it a bit at a time as I have time.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Congratulations!

You win!

God will toss you into hell for all eternity if you wander away! He won't discipline you. He won't search for you. He won't draw you back. You can just rely on yourself.

The rest of us will believe Him, his Word, and trust HIM to save us in any and every situation.

We'll miss ya!

Good work.

You're still negating the need for and ability of the required repentance.

So, this silly conclusion is consistent with your inability to understand the need for repentance and to see and believe in the message of the Text, IOW believe Him.