Another look at John 10.

PaulThomson · Tuesday at 11:30 AM

This is the problem with interpreting parables so literally that we impose foolish equations that nullify the actual equations.

We have Jesus telling three parables about three ways a person can become estranged from God. The lost sheep, the lost coin and the wayward son.

The lost sheep depicts a person who becomes distracted by his environment, and does not keep God in his thoughts and wanders off pursuing a life that does not include God any more. That person needs to be sought out by a pastor-hearted person, who will gain their trust and lead them to repent and put God back in their knowledge.

The lost coin depicts a person who is neglected by the church (the woman) and becomes mislaid and isolated from the church and self-absorbed. The church needs to go looking for such a "lost treasure" until the church loves them into repentance away from self-absorption and self-pity to relational living within the church community, serving and being served, loving and being loved.

The wayward son depicts a person who understands the blessing of God in Christ: the promise of health, forgiveness, wealth and deliverance, but becomes focussed on inheriting and enjoying these for themselves: those who gravitate into the extreme prosperity and triumphalist gospel. They are like the Israelites who were already allotted their inheritance, and chose not fight with the other tribes to help them gain their inheritances also, but chose to stay on their own inheritance and enjoy and accumulate blessings to themselves. Such selfishness leads to sinful indulgences and eventual public shame. When they repent from their betrayal of the family of God and come to their senses and humble themselves to become willing servants of the family of God, they are restored intimacy with the father.

The sheep is forgetting God and rthe rest of the flock, and is relating to other things in the environment apart from God and the flock. The coin is not relating to anyone, neither God nor the woman, but is self-contained. The wayward son is not relating to the father or the household, but is focussed on enjoying now the blessings of his inheritance within the family which should be largely deferred until later. All of these attitudes need to be turned around to a healthier focus. That turning around is repentance and re-established a right relationship with God and the family of God.

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Tuesday at 11:33 AM

studier said:

Right? Isn't it weird how they missed that???? It's staring them right in the face!

🎻

studier · Tuesday at 12:47 PM

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

Selective reading is always a problem. It's also like @PaulThomson says here:

PaulThomson said:

PennEd · Tuesday at 1:26 PM

studier said:

Congratulations!

You win!

God will toss you into hell for all eternity if you wander away! He won't discipline you. He won't search for you. He won't draw you back. You can just rely on yourself.

The rest of us will believe Him, his Word, and trust HIM to save us in any and every situation.

We'll miss ya!

Good work.

studier · Tuesday at 3:37 PM

mailmandan said:

NKJ John 15:1-6 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes (cleans), that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, you believe there are only genuine believers and not-genuine believers as you depict above. Do you also sometimes refer to not-genuine believers as nominal believers, meaning in name only?
Re: “in Me” that Jesus speaks of in 15:2, 4, 5, 6
- What do you think “in Me” means?
- Why do you think Jesus is commanding those 11 who are already clean to remain in Him
  - Note: “clean” in 15:3 is the same word Jesus uses in 15:2 when He says the Father “prunes” – so it seems those Jesus is speaking to have already been pruned/cleansed.
- Where do you see in the Text the concept of “self-attached” being “in Me” as Jesus explains the interconnected relationship of the vine and the branches – both productive (“genuine”) and non-productive (“self-attached”) branches?
Re: Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit:
- Since He says nothing, then isn’t your argument that a productive branch cannot become unproductive also an argument from silence?
Re: Judas being self-attached and a not-genuine believer:
- How does a self-attached not-genuine believer become “in Me” (assuming you’ve already answered what “in Me” means)?
- How is “in Me” that meaningful if anyone can self-attach?
  - Is it only remaining “in Me” that is meaningful?
- Jesus says the Father gave Judas to Him and that Jesus lost Judas (John17:12)
  - Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
- Jesus says He chose Judas for Apostleship (Luke6:13-16)
  - Where does Scripture say Judas was “self-attached”?
- Scripture says several negative things about Judas.
  - Does Scripture ever tell us he never believed?

You posted a lot. I’ll take it a bit at a time as I have time.

studier · Tuesday at 3:48 PM

PennEd said:

You're still negating the need for and ability of the required repentance.

So, this silly conclusion is consistent with your inability to understand the need for repentance and to see and believe in the message of the Text, IOW believe Him.

studier · Tuesday at 8:02 PM

mailmandan said:

Firstly, what does Robertson mean by "cosmic"?

Note that Jesus referring to Judas is "Probably" so uncertain. If Judas is being referred to, then my questions about him in my previous post are applicable.

If you're trying to make a case against genuine believers potentially failing to abide as commanded, then you should have read more from the link you provided (Thanks for providing it BTW. It shows some integrity).

The following quotes are from the same page you referenced for us:

Continuing re: John15:2 after the excerpt you provided above. The underlined portions and any colored text in Robertson's text are my highlighting. The bulleted comments are mine:

Cleanseth (καθαιρε). Present active indicative of old verb καθαιρω (clean) as in verse John 15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though καθαριζω is more frequent (Hebrews 10:2).

That it may bear more fruit (ινα καρπον πλειονα φερη). Purpose clause with ινα and present active subjunctive of φερω, "that it may keep on bearing more fruit" (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.

Robertson seems to be telling us that bearing more and more fruit is a good test to see if Christians and church members are truly cleansed and abiding.

Verse 4

Abide in me (μεινατε εν εμο). Constative aorist active imperative of μενω. The only way to continue "clean" (pruned) and to bear fruit is to maintain vital spiritual connexion with Christ (the vine). Judas is gone and Satan will sift the rest of them like wheat (Luke 22:31). Blind complacency is a peril to the preacher.

This constative aorist command to abide means abiding must be continuous
As Robertson says, "complacency is a peril"
Taken together he seems to be telling us that there is no room in the Christian life for complacency for the preacher who is preaching to Christians and thus to Christians either. Complacency and continuous abiding are antithetical.
Note how Robertson is picking up the sifting of these Apostles he says will take place after this instruction by Jesus

Of itself (αφ' εαυτου). As source (from itself) and apart from the vine (cf. John 17:17).

Except it abide (εαν μη μενη). Condition of third class with εαν, negative μη, and present active (keep on abiding) subjunctive of μενω. Same condition and tense in the application, "except ye abide in me."

Christians cannot produce fruit unless you keep on abiding in Christ.
This third-class condition language coupled with the comments re: complacency and the identifications of the constative command and continuous present tense verbs are showing us that Robertson likely sees some contingency in this subjunctive verb "keep on abiding". IOW it seems to me his explanations and the nature of the third-class condition and the "except/unless you keep on abiding in Me" are saying to be very cautious of failure to abide.

Verse 5

Ye the branches (υμεις τα κληματα). Jesus repeats and applies the metaphor of verse John 15:1.

Apart from me (χωρις εμου). See Ephesians 2:12 for χωρις Χριστου. There is nothing for a broken off branch to do but wither and die. For the cosmic relation of Christ see John 1:3 (χωρις αυτου).

I may well be wrong but by pointing us to John1:3 Roberston seems to be saying every man has a cosmic connection to Jesus Christ through creation of the kosmos. If so, then he seems to be saying that all men are expected by their Creator to be productive. If so, then he seems to be saying the only way to be productive is to remain "in Christ" which assumes believing in Him.

Verse 6

He is cast forth (εβληθη εξω). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of βαλλω as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also verses John 15:4; John 15:7 for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive μεινητε and μεινη in verse John 15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption. Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.

This is as far as I'm going to take this. Anybody who cares to can read the rest of what Robertson says at the link you provided.
The highlighted portion of Robetson's statement above is very clear. Here's how I read it:
- The Apostles are vividly warned not to presume they play no part in this relationship with Jesus Christ.
- JESUS CHRIST WILL FULFILL HIS PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS THE APOSTLES DO THEIR PART AND REMAIN IN VITAL UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST AS COMMANDED.

As a branch (ως το κλημα).

And is withered (εξηρανθη). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of ξηραινω, same timeless use in James 1:11 of grass, old and common verb. They gather (συναγουσιν). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.

IMO, Robertson clearly stands on the side of the potentiality of Christians to not abide as commanded and warned. He clearly makes the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ conditional nit only by his statement under v.6 above highlighted, but also by his interpretation of verb tenses and grammatical structures.

I'm seeing a lot of problems with your post @mailmandan

mailmandan · Tuesday at 8:39 PM

studier said:

Firstly, what does Robertson mean by "cosmic"?

Note that Jesus referring to Judas is "Probably" so uncertain. If Judas is being referred to, then my questions about him in my previous post are applicable.

If you're trying to make a case against genuine believers potentially failing to abide as commanded, then you should have read more from the link you provided (Thanks for providing it BTW. It shows some integrity).

The following quotes are from the same page you referenced for us:

Continuing re: John15:2 after the excerpt you provided above. The underlined portions and any colored text in Robertson's text are my highlighting. The bulleted comments are mine:

Cleanseth (καθαιρε). Present active indicative of old verb καθαιρω (clean) as in verse John 15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though καθαριζω is more frequent (Hebrews 10:2).

That it may bear more fruit (ινα καρπον πλειονα φερη). Purpose clause with ινα and present active subjunctive of φερω, "that it may keep on bearing more fruit" (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.

Robertson seems to be telling us that bearing more and more fruit is a good test to see if Christians and church members are truly cleansed and abiding.

Verse 4

Abide in me (μεινατε εν εμο). Constative aorist active imperative of μενω. The only way to continue "clean" (pruned) and to bear fruit is to maintain vital spiritual connexion with Christ (the vine). Judas is gone and Satan will sift the rest of them like wheat (Luke 22:31). Blind complacency is a peril to the preacher.

This constative aorist command to abide means abiding must be continuous
As Robertson says, "complacency is a peril"
Taken together he seems to be telling us that there is no room in the Christian life for the preacher who is preaching to Christians and thus to Christians either. Complacency and continuous abiding are antithetical.
Note how Robertson is picking up the sifting of these Apostles he says will take place after this instruction by Jesus

Of itself (αφ' εαυτου). As source (from itself) and apart from the vine (cf. John 17:17).

Except it abide (εαν μη μενη). Condition of third class with εαν, negative μη, and present active (keep on abiding) subjunctive of μενω. Same condition and tense in the application, "except ye abide in me."

Christians cannot produce fruit unless you keep on abiding in Christ.
This third-class condition language coupled with the comments re: complacency and the identifications of the constative command and continuous present tense verbs are showing us that Robertson likely sees some contingency in this subjunctive verb "keep on abiding". IOW it seems to me his explanations and the nature of the third-class condition and the "except/unless you keep on abiding in Me" are saying to be very cautious of failure to abide.

Verse 5

Ye the branches (υμεις τα κληματα). Jesus repeats and applies the metaphor of verse John 15:1.

Apart from me (χωρις εμου). See Ephesians 2:12 for χωρις Χριστου. There is nothing for a broken off branch to do but wither and die. For the cosmic relation of Christ see John 1:3 (χωρις αυτου).

I may well be wrong but by pointing us to John1:3 Roberston seems to be saying every man has a cosmic connection to Jesus Christ through creation of the kosmos. If so, then he seems to be saying that all men are expected by their Creator to be productive. If so, then he seems to be saying the only way to be productive is to remain "in Christ" which assumes believing in Him.

Verse 6

He is cast forth (εβληθη εξω). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of βαλλω as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also verses John 15:4; John 15:7 for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive μεινητε and μεινη in verse John 15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption. Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.

This is as far as I'm going to take this. Anybody who cares to can read the rest of what Robertson says at the link you provided.
The highlighted portion of Robetson's statement above is very clear. Here's how I read it:
- The Apostles are vividly warned not to presume they play no part in this relationship with Jesus Christ.
- JESUS CHRIST WILL FULFILL HIS PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS THE APOSTLES DO THEIR PART AND REMAIN IN VITAL UNION WITH JESUS CHRIST AS COMMANDED.

As a branch (ως το κλημα).

And is withered (εξηρανθη). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of ξηραινω, same timeless use in James 1:11 of grass, old and common verb. They gather (συναγουσιν). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.

IMO, Robertson clearly stands on the side of the potentiality of Christians to not abide as commanded and warned. He clearly makes the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ conditional nit only by his statement under v.6 above highlighted, but also by his interpretation of verb tenses and grammatical structures.

I'm seeing a lot of problems with your post @mailmandan

Obviously, you and I do not see eye to eye on this and a mere cosmic connection (or a connection with no spiritual life) results in a branch that bears no fruit in contrast with a spiritual and vital connection that bears fruit. It sounds to me like you may not properly understand Robertson's teaching here.

AT Robertson was widely regarded as a great Greek scholar particularly of New Testament Greek. He was a prominent Southern Baptist preacher and biblical scholar, known for his extensive work on the Greek New Testament.

PennEd · Tuesday at 9:29 PM

studier said:

Watch and learn young man.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/16Pa8psfuN/?mibextid=wwXIfr

studier · Wednesday at 6:40 AM

PennEd said:

Youth was overrated.

Thanks for the video. I've heard and read most arguments by now but am always in the Text and these days interacting on these threads a bit to see if someone might say something new that we haven't considered or stimulate some insight to look at something from a different angle.

I agree there is a truth of security, BTW. But your insistence on reading past repentance isn't helpful to understanding it correctly.

studier · Wednesday at 7:35 AM

mailmandan said:

Agreed. We are in disagreement.

I know who Robertson is and have read quite a bit of his work over the years. I've run into his work many times and still do in regard to some of his work in Greek, which I too am schooled in. I understand all of his interpretations of Greek issues in the Text you pointed us to, and my quick read was agreement with him. For instance, my take on the constative aorist was the same as his before you pointed us to him. And BTW, just because he was a Greek scholar doesn't mean other Greek scholars always agree with him.

I didn't spend a lot of time, but I was pretty much in agreement with what I read. His "cosmic" language was interesting. If there's anything he said I'm not comfortable that I understand completely it's his use of it. He does seem to be saying all are created "in Me" which is not something I recall reading before. Yes, cosmic doesn't abide. That's simple. It's interesting to consider how he ties it to John1.

I glanced through his John15 just a bit more while writing this. It looks like he builds a case for required obedience as he proceeds past v.6 where I stopped yesterday. Of course, this makes sense since abiding is commanded. IMO apart from obedience to The Christ King (all authority) our Faith is not genuine Faith. Robertson looks to be making obedience constative and required. I agree with this.

I've left a lot of questions for you. I doubt we'll interact over them, but they're there if we do. Robertson put your view to sleep. Cosmic is not his only point. It's very clear he sees the 11 involved in their abiding relationship and that they are firmly warned about any complacency. Their fruit bearing relationship with Christ was conditional on them continually doing their part as commanded. From there some will argue that it's just about rewards and not relationship. I disagree with that also.

mailmandan · Wednesday at 8:03 AM

studier said:

Robertson did not put my view to sleep. I am in agreement with Robertson. Certain folks seem to miss the heart of the reason why believers abide. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. Believers are not passive in abiding, but it's not merely in our own power that we do abide.

Abiding is not about pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps and keeping ourselves saved by works. In 2 John 1:9 we see two camps. Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ do not have God and those who abide in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son - unbelievers and believers contrasted. Apart from the power of God I would have never come to believe the gospel in the first place (1 Thessalonians 1:5) or abide. (1 Peter 1:5)

studier · Wednesday at 10:25 AM

mailmandan said:

So, you agree with Robertson that obedient abiding vs. complacency is mandatory for continued relationship with Jesus Christ?

We are in agreement on your last sentence above. It's good you say believers are not passive. Some it has seemed in my experience would disagree with you. My concern is what you mean by "passive" because others will agree with this but then turn our activity into something that is done for us as if we have no actual cooperative responsibility. You may be doing this with the way you're highlighting above in 1John4:13 (see below).

Have you ever done the work to analyze all of what John says in his writings re: abiding? In just his letters he speaks of it using forms of menō 27 times. Like most things Scriptural it's not a one or two verse teaching as you're presenting above. @GWH would likely now instruct us re: harmonizing Scripture.

But let's begin with your proof-texting.:

In 1John4:13 using your highlights above, this seems to be your analysis:
- We abide because He has given us of His Spirit
However, grammatically the language looks to be saying:
- We know [____] He has given us from His Spirit
- I'm leaving the "because" blank for a moment because it can have different meanings
- The main point is not that we abide {because - or?} - the main point is that we know [because or?}
Also, there is some ambiguity re: the phrase "By this" that John uses to begin 1John4:13.
In 1John4:15 the normal question that arises pertains to the tense translation of "confesses"
- Is it a one-time confession or a continuous "lifestyle" I've seen you referring to based upon some other's work you've referenced?
- The other issue that arises is whether or not this one verse commonly used as a proof-text is all there is to at minimum John's teaching re: abiding.
So, here are John's mentions of forms of menō in his letters:
- (1 Jn. 2:6 NKJ) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
  (1 Jn. 2:10 NKJ) He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
  (1 Jn. 2:14 NKJ) I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
  (1 Jn. 2:17 NKJ) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
  (1 Jn. 2:19 NKJ) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
  (1 Jn. 2:24 NKJ) Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
  (1 Jn. 2:27 NKJ) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
  (1 Jn. 2:28 NKJ) And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
  (1 Jn. 3:6 NKJ) Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
  (1 Jn. 3:9 NKJ) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
  (1 Jn. 3:14 NKJ) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
  (1 Jn. 3:15 NKJ) Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
  (1 Jn. 3:17 NKJ) But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
  (1 Jn. 3:24 NKJ) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
  (1 Jn. 4:12 NKJ) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
  (1 Jn. 4:13 NKJ) By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
  (1 Jn. 4:15 NKJ) Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
  (1 Jn. 4:16 NKJ) And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
  (2 Jn. 1:2 NKJ) because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
  (2 Jn. 1:9 NKJ) Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

Care to harmonize all of this and then possibly move back to GJohn where John writes in forms of menō another 41 or so times? If you've never done this work or read the work of others who have done it (and not just those who agree with you), then you might at least consider why some of us who have done and/or read such work may be thinking differently than you do.

studier · Wednesday at 10:45 AM

mailmandan said:

This is the customary claim against those who read these verses differently than you do. Yet I and others I've read do not claim to be doing anything apart from Christ apart from who we can do nothing, nor do we see this obedient abiding as works salvation which I and others I've read simply see as a not well reasoned allegation.

2John1:9 is speaking of anti-christs who deny Messiah having come in flesh. They transgress/deviate (another manuscript says they go ahead, take the lead) and do not remain in the teaching of/about Jesus Christ.

I agree that Christians are commanded to remain in Christ. I also agree with what John is teaching and commanding in 2John which is to be loving one another and obeying God's commandments, which these anti-christs can endanger by their non-Christian teaching. Thus John's command not to have anything to do with them.

So, more warnings of danger for the Christian to be aware of and as Robertson pointed out in John15 re abiding - no complacency - fulfill your responsibility.

2John is not about coming to believe the Gospel. It's about Christians remaining in Christ's teaching and thus in Christ and being very wary and separate from anything that may deceive us into not abiding.

mailmandan · Wednesday at 3:26 PM

PennEd said:

studier said:

So, you agree with Robertson that obedient abiding vs. complacency is mandatory for continued relationship with Jesus Christ?

We are in agreement on your last sentence above. It's good you say believers are not passive. Some it has seemed in my experience would disagree with you. My concern is what you mean by "passive" because others will agree with this but then turn our activity into something that is done for us as if we have no actual cooperative responsibility. You may be doing this with the way you're highlighting above in 1John4:13 (see below).

Have you ever done the work to analyze all of what John says in his writings re: abiding? In just his letters he speaks of it using forms of menō 27 times. Like most things Scriptural it's not a one or two verse teaching as you're presenting above. @GWH would likely now instruct us re: harmonizing Scripture.

But let's begin with your proof-texting.:

In 1John4:13 using your highlights above, this seems to be your analysis:
- We abide because He has given us of His Spirit
However, grammatically the language looks to be saying:
- We know [____] He has given us from His Spirit
- I'm leaving the "because" blank for a moment because it can have different meanings
- The main point is not that we abide {because - or?} - the main point is that we know [because or?}
Also, there is some ambiguity re: the phrase "By this" that John uses to begin 1John4:13.
In 1John4:15 the normal question that arises pertains to the tense translation of "confesses"
- Is it a one-time confession or a continuous "lifestyle" I've seen you referring to based upon some other's work you've referenced?
- The other issue that arises is whether or not this one verse commonly used as a proof-text is all there is to at minimum John's teaching re: abiding.
So, here are John's mentions of forms of menō in his letters:
- (1 Jn. 2:6 NKJ) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
  (1 Jn. 2:10 NKJ) He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
  (1 Jn. 2:14 NKJ) I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
  (1 Jn. 2:17 NKJ) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
  (1 Jn. 2:19 NKJ) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
  (1 Jn. 2:24 NKJ) Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
  (1 Jn. 2:27 NKJ) But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
  (1 Jn. 2:28 NKJ) And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
  (1 Jn. 3:6 NKJ) Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
  (1 Jn. 3:9 NKJ) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
  (1 Jn. 3:14 NKJ) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
  (1 Jn. 3:15 NKJ) Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
  (1 Jn. 3:17 NKJ) But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
  (1 Jn. 3:24 NKJ) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
  (1 Jn. 4:12 NKJ) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
  (1 Jn. 4:13 NKJ) By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
  (1 Jn. 4:15 NKJ) Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
  (1 Jn. 4:16 NKJ) And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
  (2 Jn. 1:2 NKJ) because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
  (2 Jn. 1:9 NKJ) Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

Care to harmonize all of this and then possibly move back to GJohn where John writes in forms of menō another 41 or so times? If you've never done this work or read the work of others who have done it (and not just those who agree with you), then you might at least consider why some of us who have done and/or read such work may be thinking differently than you do.

In regard to obedient abiding (as you put it) all genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Absolute complacency is not the mark of a genuine believer. (James 2:14-18) The Greek word for abide is "meno" which means to remain, stay, continue. You sound dangerously close to teaching "type 2 works salvation." How do you interpret James 2:14-26?

In regard to harmonizing those multiple verses on abiding, 1 John 4:13 signifies that the presence of God's Spirit within us is a clear indication of our abiding relationship with God, both Him abiding in us and us abiding in Him. Nothing ambiguous here. Confessing that Jesus is the Son of God is an ongoing confession (1 John 4:15) and is not confess today but deny tomorrow. Also, saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

These other verses you cited are the mark of abiding. He who abides does not practice sin, "keeps "Greek word "tereo" (guards, observes, watches over) His commandments and loves the brethren. We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Apart from God's word, God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, I would not have come to believe the gospel in the first place or abide in Christ. All the glory and honor goes to the Lord for my salvation. ✝️

mailmandan · Wednesday at 3:48 PM

studier said:

Prior to my conversion, I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and they wrote the book on "type 2 works salvation" and there are numerous folks from various other false religions and cults who also promote salvation by works at the back door and front door so this is a very sensitive and serious subject for me. The real danger in not abiding is for "nominal" Christians like Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Saving faith in Christ needs to be firmly rooted and established from the start in order to abide.

As you already cited in 1 John 2:24 -
Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1 Jn. 2:27 - But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught has taught you, you will abide in Him.

I"ve been a Christian coming up on 27 years now and the idea of refusing to abide in Christ is unfathomable to me. Praise the Lord!

studier · Wednesday at 7:12 PM

mailmandan said:

To begin with, in response to your statement, you sound like you're making up terminology. How many types of works salvation do you think there are?

Yes, we are in agreement re: the basic meaning of menō.

Please be a bit more specific re: James2. Where do you want to start or what word or topic do you want to focus on or start with?

mailmandan said:

We're agreed on continuous confession.

I'm going to tap @Beckworth here who has well said that we have no disagreement that saving faith continues and is not some shallow belief that has no root, etc. But this does not say one cannot walk away.

I'm also going to reiterate what we've discussed re: John15 that your reference to Robertson essentially stated the commands and warnings are real, and the abiding responsibility was commanded of His 11 Apostles. These commands usually end up being discussed in the realm of whether they're real or not because as it seems you do, some say we can't fail to abide. Others say we can.

You say there is no ambiguity re: 1John4:13 but there is ambiguity from a translation and interpretation perspective. Firstly, the first two words sometimes translated "by this" can be pointing forward, which is how it looks like you're considering it, but they can also be looking backward which puts perfected love into the mutual abiding equation and His giving us from His Spirit. And this is one of the reasons it takes some harmonizing of all that's said about abiding.

mailmandan said:

You've analyzed all 27 verses re: abiding and conclude they are all the mark of abiding? Let's try a few:

NKJ 1John2:3-6 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

We know Christ if we keep/guard/obey His commandments

4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Someone who says he knows Christ and does not keep/guard/obey His commandments is a liar.
This is wrapping up v.3 tightly. We know Him only if we obey Him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

The love of/for God is perfected in whoever keeps/guards/obeys Christ's/God's Word
By this perfected love - keeping/guarding/obeying Christ's/God's Word - we know we are in Him
- Consider this verse when looking at the issues and the wording of 1John4:13
- Also note how "in Him" is taken into abiding in Him in the next verse

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

The man who says/is saying he abides/is abiding in Him is indebted/obligated to walk just as He walked
- This is obligation, and "ought" needs to be understood as such.

I see obedience necessary for knowing Him, not being a liar, having love perfected in us, knowing that we are in Him, and living as we are obligated to do in order to be even saying we are abiding in Him.

Now you can choose to turn these instructions into the marks of abiding, but the language is about obligation and love and obedience. As John proceeds, he'll issue commands in v.15, 24, and 28:

NKJ 1John2:15-17 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world-- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-- is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Christians are commanded to not love the world or the things of the world
Anyone who loves the world does not have the love of/for the Father in him (again consider abiding)
The obedient Christian - the Christian who is doing God's will - abides forever
- Which should tell us something about abiding - it's directly tied to obedience

NKJ 1John2:24-25 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.

Christians are commanded to have what they heard in the beginning abide/remain in them
If Christians are doing this, then they will abide in the Son and in the Father
- The abiding is conditional
Eternal life is related to this abiding

NKJ 1John2:27-29 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Christians are commanded to abide in Him
This is being correlated to abiding as Christians were taught
This is being correlated to living righteously

These are not all indicating the "mark of abiding" as you said. And this is not all of what's taught and commanded about abiding.

Abiding requires obedience, love for God, walking/living as Jesus Christ did, not loving the world or things of the world, retaining what we have been taught from the beginning, and living righteously. And this is just what we're told so far.

So, are commands to be obeyed with the possibility of disobedience, or are they to just be viewed as the mark of abiding and cannot be disobeyed, or??? Is disobedience, lack of love for God and for one another, not living as Jesus did, loving the world and things of the world, not retaining what we were taught from the beginning, living unrighteously (thus in sin), possible for the Christian, and thus all these commands are important and vital, and as Robertson stated Christ will do His part if we do ours, or are all of these commands and all of this instruction just for show because the Christian cannot fail?

mailmandan · Thursday at 7:43 AM

studier said:

To begin with, in response to your statement, you sound like you're making up terminology. How many types of works salvation do you think there are?

Say what?

I'll cut right to the chase. Do you believe that James is teaching salvation by works? Do you believe that James 2:24 means we are justified (accounted as righteous) by works or (shown to be righteous) by works?

1 John 2:19.

The 11 remaining apostles did not fail to abide. Only Judas Iscariot failed and there is a reason for that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. (NASB1995)

1 John 4:13 By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit. (AMPC) Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Now none of us have flawlessly obeyed all of His commandments 100% of the time, which is not what John is teaching.

- Demonstrative evidence that we are in Him.

- Ought to walk as Jesus walked and Jesus walked in love. All genuine believers walk in love (1 John 4:7-8) though some do a better job of it than others. Those who do not love do not know God, for God is love.

I see obedience as the necessary demonstrative evidence that we do know Him.

You are leaning towards "type 2 works salvation." Just as in 1 John 2:3, we demonstrate that we have come to know Him by keeping/guarding/observing/watching over His commandments. We don't keep His commandments as unbelievers then come to know Him based on keeping them. We need to be careful not to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.

- You are creating two camps of Christians. 1. Obedient Christians who remain saved and disobedience Christians who lose their salvation. I don't subscribe to NOSAS which can easily culminate in salvation by works at the back door. Again, to abide is to stay, remain, continue. Throughout 1 John chapter 2, we see a contrast between genuine Christians and non-genuine Christians. See 1 John 2:9-11 for example which is in harmony with 1 John 3:10 and 1 John 4:7-8

CONTINUED..

mailmandan · Thursday at 7:45 AM

If what we heard from the beginning abides in us (which means it was firmly rooted and established in us) then we will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Which is the mark of children of God. (1 John 3:7-10) in contrast with children of the devil. Whenever you read letters addressed to Christians in the NT, don't forget it's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in.

These are not all indicating the "mark of abiding" as you said.

Click to expand...

Apparently, we are not in agreement here. You seem to have a lot of faith in self-preservation but I have more faith in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:29; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) Again, we are not passive in regard to abiding, but the power is not found in us. It is God who works in us. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13) God is actively involved in the lives of believers and enables them desire and perform actions which align with His will. God finishes what He starts. (Philippians 1:6)

Abiding requires the Holy Spirit. (1 John 4:13) Without the Holy Spirit, we are not children of God and end up only abiding in a false gospel. You are still flirting with "type 2 works salvation." Why do we have love for God? (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:19) Why would we never be obedient and make no effort at all to walk as Jesus did or not love the things of the world as new creations in Christ? (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed. Praise God! Believers have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Never underestimate the power of God or overestimate self.

Well, none of us are 100% obedient 100% of the time. We are sinless and perfect 24/7. Yet children of God practice righteousness and not sin and love their brother. (1 John 3:9-10) That is the mark of a child of God.

A Christian is not characterized by disobedience. The sons of disobedience in scripture refers to unbelievers. (Ephesians 2:2) These instructions and commands are not just for show and a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, but the wicked will fall by calamity. (Psalm 37:28) Children of God are not teflon and are certainly capable of stumbling, yet Jesus' sheep will not be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28) Those whom God predestined, called and justified; He also glorified. (Romans 8:30) Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. Those who believe the gospel and are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

I don't recall AT Robertson Christ will do His part if we do ours, as if Christ merely "initially" saves us through faith and then it's up to us to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and keep ourselves saved by works. I do recall Robertson saying that grace is God's part and faith ours in his commentary on Ephesians 2:8. Robertson was a southern Baptist.

Ephesians 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

studier · Thursday at 7:56 AM

You pretty well messed up that first post. Will be hard to respond to.

Re: your first emoji, what's type 2 works salvation? Did you make this label up?

Another look at John 10.

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