In what way do you believe God specifically shows his love for unrepentant sinners who are in hell?

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#61
2Pe 3:7-10
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. ..
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The heavens and the Earth .... all elements will melt and be Burned up.

Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#62
If that were true wouldnt have God already annilated the devil and his minions? not set a place of chains in hell for them? The soul i think is eternal. And if not in hell where would you have them then? There was no peace in heaven while lusifer was their.
There are 3 heavens.

Lucifer and the rebellious angels were cast down from the 3rd Heaven, the heaven of God. Lucifer and his angels have been remanded to the 2nd heaven: unseen realm.

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience..."


Their dwelling is still heavenly as in "not of the earth" so they retain the advantage of unseen spirits:

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

That will end in the final days when they are cast down, fully, into the earth:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Then they will be tangible, solid, and by that they will know their time is short:

"Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Not to worry: those in Christ will prevail:

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#63
If that were true wouldnt have God already annilated the devil and his minions? not set a place of chains in hell for them? The soul i think is eternal. And if not in hell where would you have them then? There was no peace in heaven while lusifer was their.
Please prove that the soul is eternal.

This is the lie that Satan told from the start.

There is non eternal except God.

And God can let His creation die. Perish, not exist.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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#65
Of course God doesn't love the people in hell, why would anyone say something so dumb?

Those people are in hell already.

God DID love them, past tense, by sending His son to die for their sins. But they spit at God's face and now pay the price for it. Too late for love
“God DID love them, past tense, by sending His son to die for their sins.”

i agree. God offers salvation to all because he loves mankind he loves people which he created but because we know and do both good and evil we need to choose the good because evil and those who serve and perpetuate it have a violent and certain end.

jesus gives us the reason to choose the good to trust him with our salvation and listen to his word promising it trusting that he’s going to lead us home and not astray.

The first reason being no matter what human you are , Jesus died to pay the penalty of suffering and death for your sins against God and others. There’s no other acceptable atonement for sinners other than Jesus the son of God suffering and dying for our sin it’s the only thing God accepts.

So then , while it can save anyone , if we reject it we have no other atonement and will die in our sins

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭

Wheras if we do believe in Jesus we have remission of sins through his name.

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Of course this is early doctrine we all have heard and know

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we don’t want to go to hell but eventually even those in hell must be raised up and judged by Jesus

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13‬ ‭

God has told mankind about good and evil and the end of both ways , if we believe him and follow what he’s said we’ll live . If we reject what he’s said and create other ways or no ways at all we’ll die.

he told mankind the truth all along since the fruit and the controversy that arose with the lie. He told cain also the truth but some people don’t believe him and so they end up just as he warns us about whatever the case may be.

it will always be like he said good or bad . Gods love for man also needs to be considered “ if there’s one evil man terrorizing the other decent folks in a group is it love for the group to allow the one terrorizing and victimizing all the others to go on about it ?

If you punish a grown criminal according to the words of a law they were aware of , does this mean you lack love for them ?

Or does it mean they disregarded your warnings and instructions you gave them because you love them and wanted them to live and not be punished ?

weve erased all forms of our own responsability with the term “ grace “

but the Bible teaches us we need to take responsibility for our actions because we’re surely going to be judged according to them.

God loves man but man is also free to eat of any tree and we need to choose the ones God says won’t harm us
 

Hakawaka

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2021
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#66
God is Love. how can he stop loving?

If you were a Judge and had to sentence your child to life in prison........Would you stop loving them?

Because you had to deal with Justice, doesn't make you unloving.
God is Love. Thats all you hear in churchianity nowadays. Its true but theres more to him than love. If you truly believe God loves those in hell, you have a strange idea of love, and you have probably never read the Bible. God is angry with the wicked daily, hell is wrath, not love. For those who ignore the old testament verses, there are plenty of those in the new testament as well, the whole book of revelation for a starter, john 3:36, those who refuse Christ, God's wrath remains on them.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Thats wrath, not love. Revelation has a message to the churches where Jesus actually says:
Rev. 2:
"20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. "


Where is the love? I know many of you here will just continue on asking me questions and ignoring the verses provided, or completely explaining them away. The Bible says what it does. God is love, yes. But that doesn't cancel out these other verses.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#67
If that were true wouldnt have God already annilated the devil and his minions? not set a place of chains in hell for them? The soul i think is eternal. And if not in hell where would you have them then? There was no peace in heaven while lusifer was their.
The reason God didn't annilated the devil from the start is because the accusations that the devil made were not proven. The Earth is the stage for this controversy and after 6000 years the truth is seen by all.

If God destroyed Satan before the accusations could be seen to be lies then the seeds of doubt would come to life again in the future.

God gave Satan enough rope to hang himself.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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#68
Please prove that the soul is eternal.

This is the lie that Satan told from the start.

There is non eternal except God.

And God can let His creation die. Perish, not exist.
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭

First our body dies but our spirit survives Like this

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried;

and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-

ado we can see his body dies and was buried but his living spirit is now existing in this realm of torment and sorrow after he’s been buried. His body is decaying and will rot and be nothing but his spirit is still in a conscious state.

At the end of the world will be the day of judgement even those who were in hell will be raised up and face judgement and those who are cast into the lake of fire , which is called the second death seems to be the death of thier living spirit which is the other part of man the living soul

One death for the body and a second for the spirit. I o my say it seems this way because the old things finally pass away and there’s no more suffering and death and sorrows and pain. Eventually it seems it’s truly the second death .

just my opinion but I’m not sure evil spirits are eternal
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#69
How long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire? The second death on earth.

No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty-the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.

The First reason is, this earth is also declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So hell can't be on earth for eternity if the earth is going to be inhabited by God's people.
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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#70
God is Love. Thats all you hear in churchianity nowadays. Its true but theres more to him than love. If you truly believe God loves those in hell, you have a strange idea of love, and you have probably never read the Bible. God is angry with the wicked daily, hell is wrath, not love. For those who ignore the old testament verses, there are plenty of those in the new testament as well, the whole book of revelation for a starter, john 3:36, those who refuse Christ, God's wrath remains on them.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Thats wrath, not love. Revelation has a message to the churches where Jesus actually says:
Rev. 2:
"20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. "


Where is the love? I know many of you here will just continue on asking me questions and ignoring the verses provided, or completely explaining them away. The Bible says what it does. God is love, yes. But that doesn't cancel out these other verses.
I have wrath.I have Justice...........It Doesn't negate my love.

Gods divine attributes NEVER cease to exist. God is Love. God is Just. God is Holy. God Is Sovereign. God Is Righteous......What we have a hard time understanding is the fact they all operate in accordance with each other.

His Love cannot impugn His Justice. His Justice cannot impugn His Love. His Sovereignty cannot impugn His Justice.

All of His divine attributes work and function together at ALL times. He will never stop Loving. He will never stop being Just. He will never stop being Holy.......
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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806
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#71
How long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire? The second death on earth.

No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty-the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.

The First reason is, this earth is also declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So hell can't be on earth for eternity if the earth is going to be inhabited by God's people.
If annihilation is the just punishment.........no need for "degrees."
 
Jul 3, 2015
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#72
Where is the love? I know many of you here will just continue on asking me questions and ignoring the verses provided, or
completely explaining them away. The Bible says what it does. God is love, yes. But that doesn't cancel out these other verses.
God takes no pleasure in anyone's eternal death... in the same way it is for us to "put down" an animal we love
when we know they are at the end of their days. It is loving to put sentient creatures out of their misery.



Ezekiel 18 verses 4 plus 32 ~ Behold every soul belongs to me both father and son are mine.The soul who sins is the one who will die. For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord God. So repent and live!
:)
 
Dec 12, 2024
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#73
I have wrath.I have Justice...........It Doesn't negate my love.

Gods divine attributes NEVER cease to exist. God is Love. God is Just. God is Holy. God Is Sovereign. God Is Righteous......What we have a hard time understanding is the fact they all operate in accordance with each other.

His Love cannot impugn His Justice. His Justice cannot impugn His Love. His Sovereignty cannot impugn His Justice.

All of His divine attributes work and function together at ALL times. He will never stop Loving. He will never stop being Just. He will never stop being Holy.......
Do you believe God love Satan?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,244
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#74
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:8‬ ‭

First our body dies but our spirit survives Like this

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried;

and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-

ado we can see his body dies and was buried but his living spirit is now existing in this realm of torment and sorrow after he’s been buried. His body is decaying and will rot and be nothing but his spirit is still in a conscious state.

At the end of the world will be the day of judgement even those who were in hell will be raised up and face judgement and those who are cast into the lake of fire , which is called the second death seems to be the death of thier living spirit which is the other part of man the living soul

One death for the body and a second for the spirit. I o my say it seems this way because the old things finally pass away and there’s no more suffering and death and sorrows and pain. Eventually it seems it’s truly the second death .

just my opinion but I’m not sure evil spirits are eternal
Only God is immortal.
Only God has true immorality

The verses you quoted are great. But do you hang your whole belief on one parable of Jesus.

1 parable.. vs.. many verses from other places that state the opposite.

Parables were used to illustrate principles.

Wheat and tares, seeds, pearls, wages, and virgins with lamps,
If we take the principles they are wonderful illustrations of how we should live and the truth.

But we don't use them to prove that I'm literally a virgin, or literally a seed.

Take another look at the parable and see the true reason Jesus told it. The principle that He wanted us to take away.

Don't use it to build a false doctrine.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#76
A problematic issue is reconciling God’s power and love with the fact of evil and its consequence. A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

Thus, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).
Some good discussion, but I do not see a better harmonization of all relevant Scriptures than what I proposed.
The key to jibing love and justice is the last paragraph. Here are the verses indicating annihilation after justice is achieved:
John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,244
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#77
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish.
John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him? They surely will perish. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. Please don't miss the pointed simplicity of these verses. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.

But the devil has convinced so many that the wicked have eternal life too.

Does perish mean you live forever. ?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,244
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Australia
#78
Do you believe God love Satan?
God loves the sinner but hates sin.

God let's us choose who we will serve.

God or sin.

Sin = death

If we choose sin we are choosing death.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,244
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#79
1Jn 5:11-12
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

How can you say that souls without Jesus have eternal life?
How can you say people in hell have eternal life?

Life is life regardless of the condition.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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#80
Does perish mean you live forever. ?
Good question.

Eternal life is living forever.

Perishing.............Is dying forever.
REV 14:11 - “the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night.”