In what way do you believe God specifically shows his love for unrepentant sinners who are in hell?

[GWH]

I’m not one of these people who imagined I Can’t be wrong . Have been and probably will be again. A lot of folks don’t believe it’s possible what they think could be wrong . I’m too old i I or better been proven wrong before and may be again

bottom line i dont think anyone here is always right for including myself

I didn’t say I was wrong , what I said was that’s what I believe but that doesn’t mean I’m right . Seems like a good expression of my position

So my guess about what you meant by saying "it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing" was correct, and I agree with what you just said.

The reason for my clarification is that I am always hoping no one is trolling,
but rather everyone is sharing their sincere beliefs and interpretations of GW
with willingness to amend them immediately if enlightened by CC discussions,
so that we always are stating what we believe is the best/truest understanding.

Thanks for providing me the opportunity to mention this concern for sincerity and unity.

 

[GWH]

I saw this thread at its start. I read this post and a couple of others and thought the thread would die for lack of interest.

I'm surprised it has received this much interest if the observation above were valid.

I think this thread is one of the most important topics that has been originated on CC.
What surprised me was how many replies it is taking to resolve nothing on the Understanding God's Election thread.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So my guess about what you meant by saying "it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing" was correct, and I agree with what you just said.

The reason for my clarification is that I am always hoping no one is trolling,
but rather everyone is sharing their sincere beliefs and interpretations of GW
with willingness to amend them immediately if enlightened by CC discussions,
so that we always are stating what we believe is the best/truest understanding.

Thanks for providing me the opportunity to mention this concern for sincerity and unity.

“my guess about what you meant by saying "it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing" was correct, and I agree with what you just said.”

yes I just meant this

“it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing”

i appreciate the discussion and clarification . I see a lot of arguing over the pet three years here that is obviously caused because two people both are sure they aren’t wrong but they are saying opposite things . It’s hard to see if it’s you but if your hurt observing it’s easy to see

airs very counterproductive for my own purpose of being here . I’ve been wrong here more than once been corrected on a few things I began being convinced of but in the end the other person showed the right scriptures and said the right words with the right attitude and it taught me something new which I appreciate learning things if I’m wrong

i suppose that’s why I say that pretty often in my posts . Because I know that I’m capable of being completely wrong but not seeing it myself , I of course believe what I’m saying to be correct but my point is I could be wrongn so me thinking I’m right , doesn’t mean I’m actually right . Just trying to discuss peacefully and consider the other persons words and thoughts without pre judging they are wrong and I’m right

 

[GWH]

“my guess about what you meant by saying "it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing" was correct, and I agree with what you just said.”

yes I just meant this

“it’s just my opinion doesn’t mean I’m right and
you are wrong or anything just discussing”

i appreciate the discussion and clarification . I see a lot of arguing over the pet three years here that is obviously caused because two people both are sure they aren’t wrong but they are saying opposite things . It’s hard to see if it’s you but if your hurt observing it’s easy to see

airs very counterproductive for my own purpose of being here . I’ve been wrong here more than once been corrected on a few things I began being convinced of but in the end the other person showed the right scriptures and said the right words with the right attitude and it taught me something new which I appreciate learning things if I’m wrong

i suppose that’s why I say that pretty often in my posts . Because I know that I’m capable of being completely wrong but not seeing it myself , I of course believe what I’m saying to be correct but my point is I could be wrongn so me thinking I’m right , doesn’t mean I’m actually right . Just trying to discuss peacefully and consider the other persons words and thoughts without pre judging they are wrong and I’m right

I agree and also admit my fallibility as I try to harmonize opposing interpretations of GW.
HAND

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

I think this thread is one of the most important topics that has been originated on CC.
What surprised me was how many replies it is taking to resolve nothing on the Understanding God's Election thread.

You injected the Election thread. Let's pursue that.

I've been in a number of forums where one of the most contentious topics is God's election of those he chose to show grace and bring into his salvation.

Hypothetically,if we accept,concede,that election unto salvation is true of God then it would stand to reason,as a consistent parallel to that,that God also chose not to save those who then are damned to Hell.

Continuing with the hypothetical.

Given all that, it then must be conceded as well that all things are predetermined by God. As he says in his own words.

Which we can say is made clear when before the foundation of the world, Jesus,God made flesh,was the lamb sacrificed for sins.
1 Peter 1:20
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

And the lambs book of life was written then too. It contains the names of all who are saved in Christ.

This then brings to mind the Old Testament verse, Proverbs 16:9.
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

 

[GWH]

You injected the Election thread. Let's pursue that.

I've been in a number of forums where one of the most contentious topics is God's election of those he chose to show grace and bring into his salvation.

Hypothetically,if we accept,concede,that election unto salvation is true of God then it would stand to reason,as a consistent parallel to that,that God also chose not to save those who then are damned to Hell.

Continuing with the hypothetical.

Given all that, it then must be conceded as well that all things are predetermined by God. As he says in his own words.

Which we can say is made clear when before the foundation of the world, Jesus,God made flesh,was the lamb sacrificed for sins.
1 Peter 1:20
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

And the lambs book of life was written then too. It contains the names of all who are saved in Christ.

This then brings to mind the Old Testament verse, Proverbs 16:9.
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Okay, now what about the other hypothetical?

 

[Daisy2]

I'm still not completely convinced about annihilation, but it's certainly a possibility. First of all, I believe God will serve justice before any destruction occurs if it happens that way. The devil, especially, must pay for all the crimes he has caused on this earth, and the weeping and gnashing of teeth mentioned in Scripture supports this idea.

TMS, I disagree with the fire in hell belongs to the devil—it is most likely God's fire. as for the souls I've never considered that are Father the maker of our souls could destroy what he has made.

Additionally, there are Christians who have had near-death experiences where they claimed have descended into hell. Many Catholic saints have also reported visions or experiences of hell.

Furthermore, if modern theology removes the idea of eternal suffering, wouldn't unbelievers be more inclined to continue in their sins, knowing that only annihilation awaits them? Many already believe this. However, the Bible states that some will be saved because they fear Hell—not because they fear death (Jude 1:23)

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Okay, now what about the other hypothetical?

Which?
It was all one.

 

[GWH]

Which?
It was all one.

You only shared the TULIP hypo.

The MFW interpretation would concede that election by God does not abrogate volition,
so it would stand to reason that sinners are responsible for choosing to ignore God's seeking grace
and therefore justly deserve not being saved and damned to Hell.

Continuing with the hypothetical, it then must be conceded as well that God's foreknowledge
does not predetermined who will and will not be saved--as He says in his own other words.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

You only shared the TULIP hypo.

I will say now,if you see Calvinists everywhere you look,this discussion will cease here.

The MFW interpretation would concede that election by God does not abrogate volition,
so it would stand to reason that sinners are responsible for choosing to ignore God's seeking grace
and therefore justly deserve not being saved and damned to Hell.

Continuing with the hypothetical, it then must be conceded as well that God's foreknowledge
does not predetermined who will and will not be saved--as He says in his own other words.

 

[TMS]

I'm still not completely convinced about annihilation, but it's certainly a possibility. First of all, I believe God will serve justice before any destruction occurs if it happens that way. The devil, especially, must pay for all the crimes he has caused on this earth, and the weeping and gnashing of teeth mentioned in Scripture supports this idea.

TMS, I disagree with the fire in hell belongs to the devil—it is most likely God's fire. as for the souls I've never considered that are Father the maker of our souls could destroy what he has made.

Additionally, there are Christians who have had near-death experiences where they claimed have descended into hell. Many Catholic saints have also reported visions or experiences of hell.

Furthermore, if modern theology removes the idea of eternal suffering, wouldn't unbelievers be more inclined to continue in their sins, knowing that only annihilation awaits them? Many already believe this. However, the Bible states that some will be saved because they fear Hell—not because they fear death (Jude 1:23)

God is love.
His justice and glory is so great it should not be the fear of pain that causes us to obey but because we love God so much that we fear that sin seperates us from Him.

Fear of separation and hurting our saviour should be the motivation to obey.

"If you love me keep my commandments"

The problem is the understanding of the nature of man.
How God created us.
God does not have pleasure in destroying the wicked. But in order to free the universe of sin and stop the rebellion on Earth it must be done.
God is doing all He can to help us turn to Him and live. But if people will not repent and cling to the evil that is causing so much pain they will be destroyed with their sin.

Heaven gave all to save every one. But it is our choice as to whether we accept the salvation or not.

The soul that sinneth shall die.

We are only living from day to day because of the life of God in us. We are not imortal and sin = death.

If you are really interested in the nature of man and what happens when you die I can give you a link to a bible study that really helped me understand things.
Just ask.

 

[GWH]

I will say now,if you see Calvinists everywhere you look,this discussion will cease here.

What I am looking for but not seeing is your harmonization of both hypotheticals.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree and also admit my fallibility as I try to harmonize opposing interpretations of GW.
HAND

Yes you really have never been one of those never able to acknolwedge when you may not completely know something. Or even might misunderstand. You notice a lot by observing how someone deals with other people in discussions here.

I dont think most of us really agree on every single thing we try to discuss here i know there’s some I agree with other stufff I don’t here ….. But I’ve noticed mostly that everyone believes the foundation of the gospel and our salvation being of course

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

and that he was buried,

and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a really good common ground and one can learn alot regarding his death and resurrection if we hear and pray about and consider , and then study and discuss the doctrine in peace with other believers . It’s really how God designed it to bring people together finding some peace and eventual harmony of thinking and belief in line with the lords

It seems like if two people who” can’t be wrong “ try to discuss something it never works out but if two people are seeking a better understanding of a subject most often they learn from each other at least to some degree in a discussion if there’s any recognition that I we can be wrong

i could possibly just be too old to think I can’t be wrong ha ha I’ve done tbat many times over the years and most of the time I was shortly humbled by the lord and proven wrong on some matter in life or the Bible . Ain’t lost me memory yet so lol

I think it frees a person up to learn when tbey don’t already understand everything, at least that’s what I found out somewhere on the last seven decades , could t say which but lol probably on the later side

anyways God bless you I read a lot of your posts and am glad you wrote them

 

[Blain]

Yes you really have never been one of those never able to acknolwedge when you may not completely know something. Or even might misunderstand. You notice a lot by observing how someone deals with other people in discussions here.

I dont think most of us really agree on every single thing we try to discuss here i know there’s some I agree with other stufff I don’t here ….. But I’ve noticed mostly that everyone believes the foundation of the gospel and our salvation being of course

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

and that he was buried,

and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a really good common ground and one can learn alot regarding his death and resurrection if we hear and pray about and consider , and then study and discuss the doctrine in peace with other believers . It’s really how God designed it to bring people together finding some peace and eventual harmony of thinking and belief in line with the lords

It seems like if two people who” can’t be wrong “ try to discuss something it never works out but if two people are seeking a better understanding of a subject most often they learn from each other at least to some degree in a discussion if there’s any recognition that I we can be wrong

i could possibly just be too old to think I can’t be wrong ha ha I’ve done tbat many times over the years and most of the time I was shortly humbled by the lord and proven wrong on some matter in life or the Bible . Ain’t lost me memory yet so lol

I think it frees a person up to learn when tbey don’t already understand everything, at least that’s what I found out somewhere on the last seven decades , could t say which but lol probably on the later side

anyways God bless you I read a lot of your posts and am glad you wrote them

Yes I too respect @GWH for several reasons he desire harmony and unity in Christ he is honest and straight forwards hecan admit when he is either wrong or doesn't full understand and he has a good grasp on the scriptures. most notably I respect his earnest desire for unity in Christ that also is what I desire this is why I tend to stay away from the election thread there is no unity to be found there every once and a while I will check it out but rarely post there

 

[Intersection]

Yes I too respect @GWH for several reasons he desire harmony and unity in Christ he is honest and straight forwards hecan admit when he is either wrong or doesn't full understand and he has a good grasp on the scriptures. most notably I respect his earnest desire for unity in Christ that also is what I desire this is why I tend to stay away from the election thread there is no unity to be found there every once and a while I will check it out but rarely post there

Those who believe the correct doctrine of Jesus Christ are the only ones who have true unity. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the elect.

 

[TMS]

If man is imortal, if man can not die, if we do not die in every way because of sin.

Why did Jesus give us the gift of life?

The concept of the atonement is useless if we do not die.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New age has always taught that we do not perish.

 

[Magenta]

This then brings to mind the Old Testament verse, Proverbs 16:9.
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Proverbs 19 verse 21 Jeremiah 10 verse 23b ~ Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. No one who walks directs his own steps.

 

[TMS]

The use of eternal and for ever, and everlasting.
"eternal" "everlasting" which are used to describe the fires of hell?
If I read it as it is = confusion and contradiction of other bible verses...

There is absolutely no confusion or contradiction when we allow the Bible to supply its own definition of terms. Many make the mistake of applying modern definitions to those biblical words without reference to their ancient contextual usage. This violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.

The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out. The same expression is used in Jude 7 concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

If you read 2 Peter 2:6 it explains that eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. If this text is true, the same kind of fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire.

Can you see the connection?

Mal 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2...... 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. It eternally destroyes.

Turns the all wicked to ashes.

 

[TMS]

2Th 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

"Everlasting destruction"...

Is it being alive while being destroyed forever?
Or is it destruction forever.

Destroyed (annihilated) forever?
Or forever not fully destroyed?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes I too respect @GWH for several reasons he desire harmony and unity in Christ he is honest and straight forwards hecan admit when he is either wrong or doesn't full understand and he has a good grasp on the scriptures. most notably I respect his earnest desire for unity in Christ that also is what I desire this is why I tend to stay away from the election thread there is no unity to be found there every once and a while I will check it out but rarely post there

Yes ultimately the goal in Christ needs to be peace and unity but understanding we are all at different places in understanding . What a 30 year old knows now today will nOt be the same as he knows at sixty even himself at 60 would disagree on some points he thought at 30 .

We’re never quite as informed and knowledgeable as we think nor as ignorant as we or other think we are ……….. But wisdom is a prayer and then a conscious choice we can make. Ultimately it’s wise to be motivated by unity in Christ leaving room for grace to be had between us

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;( us) that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:20-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the body of Christ really needs to agree on what motivates us there’s much fruit in peaceful interactions around the word , and much strife and thorns to be had in constant bitter contentions revolving around his word

There have been deadly wars fought between factions of Christianity over interpretations of doctrine differing …..let that sink in Christian’s killing other Christian’s and both sides believed they are the side of God …

Humans aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed when pride is involved