Total Depravity

[Scotth1960]

We did not write the scriptures, but we have to let them speak to us through the Holy Spirit to bring truth into our being so that we can have God's understanding and not our own to lean upon. So, when the scriptures tells us that 'there is none that doeth good, no not one', how are we to understand what that is telling us? Is there some that do good but not all or is there none that doeth good, NO NOT ONE!

Ps 53:2,3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand , that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back : they are altogether become filthy ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written , There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one .

Dear Red33, It is not true that there is "none that doeth good, no not one". God does good every day. God's mercy saves (Titus 3:16). In God's mercy, as the Father draweth all men to Himself, people can be saved when they believe (John 3:16). In Job, God calls Job righteous. Was God not speaking the truth? If Job was not righteous, then why would God say that Job was righteous?
Of course, Scripture also says that every righteous man also has some sins. It is not either/or with persons. Every person can be a mixture of righteousness and some sins. We are in a constant struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, truth and error.
Every soul must "choose life" every day. We must fight off our bad thoughts by God's grace, and ask God to give us good thoughts, good words.
God does good. So there is at least one Good One: God Himself. And remember what God Himself said: He called Job righteous. Scripture also says there is no one that does not sin. See 1 John. Whatsoever is born of God does not sin. The same epistle says, "If we say we have no sin.....". It is true we all have sin. A man may be born of God and not sin. But a man born of God still has to struggle against sin. His regenerated new nature does not sin. But the old sin nature, the old man, remains, and must be fought against by the power of the new, born again nature in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington September 2011 AD

 

[Zilla64007]

I can't believe in total depravity. I believe mankind is corrupt and has a tendency to sin, but that we're capable of acts both "good" and "evil". So yeah, I can deny total depravity.

do you believe that man has a "spark" of divinity within himself?

 

[AnandaHya]

righteous no, blameless a few are named in scripture. John the Baptist parents be a couple and Job by God Himself at least twice.

Job 2:3
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

can you explain total depravity doctrine in light of this? i'm not sure I understand your premise.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

I believe in the ability to do less sin. Not everywhere was as bad as Sodom and Gommarah. Even lost people are faced with good and evil. Not everyone who is lost does the worst things. Job was a good man to God. So was Noah. We know they were not saved, but they did not choose to do great wickedness. They were lost but they were not reprobates. People in the Old Testament were lost, but they could keep the Law and not be as the other nations. I believe that the teaching of total depravity forgets that God gives man a choice. There is less emphasis on the fact that people have a choice. When we sin it is our fault. That's what we must confess. It is our fault. Not some condition we are all born in. If we sin, it is our fault. Total depravity doesn't let us confess 100% that it is our own doing.

 

[NitzWalsh]

do you believe that man has a "spark" of divinity within himself?

I'm not sure I've ever heard that term before.

 

[NitzWalsh]

Dear Red33, It is not true that there is "none that doeth good, no not one". God does good every day. God's mercy saves (Titus 3:16). In God's mercy, as the Father draweth all men to Himself, people can be saved when they believe (John 3:16). In Job, God calls Job righteous. Was God not speaking the truth? If Job was not righteous, then why would God say that Job was righteous?
Of course, Scripture also says that every righteous man also has some sins. It is not either/or with persons. Every person can be a mixture of righteousness and some sins. We are in a constant struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, truth and error.
Every soul must "choose life" every day. We must fight off our bad thoughts by God's grace, and ask God to give us good thoughts, good words.
God does good. So there is at least one Good One: God Himself. And remember what God Himself said: He called Job righteous. Scripture also says there is no one that does not sin. See 1 John. Whatsoever is born of God does not sin. The same epistle says, "If we say we have no sin.....". It is true we all have sin. A man may be born of God and not sin. But a man born of God still has to struggle against sin. His regenerated new nature does not sin. But the old sin nature, the old man, remains, and must be fought against by the power of the new, born again nature in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington September 2011 AD

I agree with Scott... weird...

 

[4runner]

I can't believe in total depravity. I believe mankind is corrupt and has a tendency to sin, but that we're capable of acts both "good" and "evil". So yeah, I can deny total depravity.

Me too. Every part of tulip is false including the T

 

[Red33]

Scott1960, NitsWalsh, 4runner and others,

I REPEAT

On what basis do you feel that God will accept you into the kingdom of God and into His presence? Would it be upon any of your acts of human goodness or based upon something He must supply you with? Will God accept anything outside His own righteousness and perfection or will He settle for what man can produce as long as it is good? Does God forgive you of your sin because, after all, you are basically a good person, or does He forgive you based upon the fact that you are a sinner with no way to redeem and cleanse yourself from sin? To be seperated from God through sin means that we are totally depraved with no hope in and of ourselves. Our hope must come from above and in the One that God sent to redeem us from our sinful and depraved nature and that One would be Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who became sin for us that we might recieve the righteousness of God by faith. Salvation is only in the righteousness of His Son and not in our own.

DO WE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD BASED ON THE GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD THAT IS IMPUTED TO US BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH OR UPON THE MERITS OF OUR OWN GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS PRODUCED THROUGH THE STRENGTH OF OUR HUMANINTY? IT CAN'T BE BOTH. ONLY ONE IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

Cain offered his own sacrifice to God that was produced by his own energy of toiling the ground and was rejected but Abel sacrificed according to the shedding of blood and was accepted. If we offer to God the best that we can produce in and of our humanity, we will be rejected but if we offer the sacrifice of Christ that shed His blood for us being totally depraved through sin, then we will be accepted in the beloved.

 

[4runner]

Scott1960, NitsWalsh, 4runner and others,

I REPEAT

On what basis do you feel that God will accept you into the kingdom of God and into His presence? Would it be upon any of your acts of human goodness or based upon something He must supply you with? Will God accept anything outside His own righteousness and perfection or will He settle for what man can produce as long as it is good? Does God forgive you of your sin because, after all, you are basically a good person, or does He forgive you based upon the fact that you are a sinner with no way to redeem and cleanse yourself from sin? To be seperated from God through sin means that we are totally depraved with no hope in and of ourselves. Our hope must come from above and in the One that God sent to redeem us from our sinful and depraved nature and that One would be Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who became sin for us that we might recieve the righteousness of God by faith. Salvation is only in the righteousness of His Son and not in our own.

DO WE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD BASED ON THE GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD THAT IS IMPUTED TO US BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH OR UPON THE MERITS OF OUR OWN GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS PRODUCED THROUGH THE STRENGTH OF OUR HUMANINTY? IT CAN'T BE BOTH. ONLY ONE IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

Cain offered his own sacrifice to God that was produced by his own energy of toiling the ground and was rejected but Abel sacrificed according to the shedding of blood and was accepted. If we offer to God the best that we can produce in and of our humanity, we will be rejected but if we offer the sacrifice of Christ that shed His blood for us being totally depraved through sin, then we will be accepted in the beloved.

Total depravity teaches that God must regenerate a person before they can accept Christ. While scripture says we must accept Christ before we can be regenerated. I will believe the word. you can believe John Calvin...Sound fair???

 

[Tobby17]

There is no point arguing with Red33, he's obviously depraved lol. Red33, by the way I didn't get an answer 2 my question!

 

[NitzWalsh]

Total depravity teaches that God must regenerate a person before they can accept Christ. While scripture says we must accept Christ before we can be regenerated. I will believe the word. you can believe John Calvin...Sound fair???

I agree with that fully 4runner.

Scott1960, NitsWalsh, 4runner and others,

I REPEAT

On what basis do you feel that God will accept you into the kingdom of God and into His presence? Would it be upon any of your acts of human goodness or based upon something He must supply you with? Will God accept anything outside His own righteousness and perfection or will He settle for what man can produce as long as it is good? Does God forgive you of your sin because, after all, you are basically a good person, or does He forgive you based upon the fact that you are a sinner with no way to redeem and cleanse yourself from sin? To be seperated from God through sin means that we are totally depraved with no hope in and of ourselves. Our hope must come from above and in the One that God sent to redeem us from our sinful and depraved nature and that One would be Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, who became sin for us that we might recieve the righteousness of God by faith. Salvation is only in the righteousness of His Son and not in our own.

DO WE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD BASED ON THE GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD THAT IS IMPUTED TO US BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH OR UPON THE MERITS OF OUR OWN GOODNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS PRODUCED THROUGH THE STRENGTH OF OUR HUMANINTY? IT CAN'T BE BOTH. ONLY ONE IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

Cain offered his own sacrifice to God that was produced by his own energy of toiling the ground and was rejected but Abel sacrificed according to the shedding of blood and was accepted. If we offer to God the best that we can produce in and of our humanity, we will be rejected but if we offer the sacrifice of Christ that shed His blood for us being totally depraved through sin, then we will be accepted in the beloved.

It is by the grace of God through faith, but that in no way leads me to believe in Total Depravity.
But as the Bible points out in many places, He does look at what we do. So no we aren't saved by anything we can do, though he does look at what we do in life. So you can't separate Grace from the things we do, otherwise you have people saying "I'm saved by Grace through faith alone" who go out and do things which God does not approve of, I'm sure you've seen these people, I know I have.

 

[zone]

Regeneration is a sovereign work of God (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:3-8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:3) a radical work or total transformation (Ezek. 36:26-27; 1 Jn. 3:9) not just an addition...The SOURCE of regeneration is Christ (1 Pet 1:3; Eph 1:3, 2:4, 4:24; 2 Cor 5:17) The AGENT of regeneration is the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-8; Titus 3:5) The INSTRUMENT of regeneration is the Word of God (Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23, 25) which precedes and causes faith (Jn 6:63-65, 1 jn 5:1, Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13)

"God effects a change which is radical and all-pervasive, a change which cannot be explained in terms of any combination, permutation or accumulation of human resources, a change which is nothing less than a new creation by Him who calls the things that be not as though they were, who spoke and it was done, whocommanded and it stood fast. This, in a word, is regeneration." - John Murray

Regeneration is the communication of the new heart to sinners by the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word...a Christ-generated act of instantaneously communicating spiritual life to a man convicted of sin.

Regeneration is expressly denied to be of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man (John 1:13), and is ascribed to God himself. Not all men have faith in Christ; and those who do have it, have it not of themselves; it is the gift of God, worked out through the Redemption which is in Christ through the mighty operation of his Spirit, which is the fruit and effect of His invincible grace. This is because the natural man is wholly captive under the power and dominion of sin, and a slave unto it, and has neither a power nor will to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Synergists teach that 'salvation depends on human will', but the Bible teaches that 'it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Rom 9:16)

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:63-65
You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God..."

1 Peter 1:23-25
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

1 John 5:1
Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
Charles Spurgeon from the sermon “Faith and Regeneration”

If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God.
John Hannah from To God be the Glory (pg. 34-5)

The inward offer is a kind of spiritual enlightenment, whereby the promises are presented to the hearts of men, as it were, by an inward word.
William Ames

Monergism :: Regeneration

 

[zone]

Sorry Zone, my beloved sister. I disagree.
His posting is too pessimistic cause he does not name JESUS CHRIST.
So what if Jesus made his believers born free,and you are, redster, are just an unbeliever?..
Reject antichrist non religion JUDAISM!
Judaism is ANTICHRIST dogma!

hi brother ada.
he usually does name Jesus.
and fallen man without Christ is a pretty pessimistic picture.

i think we're talking about man's condition before Jesus makes His believers born free.

not every human will act like charles manson, but in the end, will any be saved outside faith in Jesus Christ's Finished Work?

if God's Righteous Law can't save a man, how can an unrighteous lawless sinner do anything whatsoever to save himself? there isn't even a LAW that gives life, even if we could keep it (which we can't) - it's totally hopeless without Jesus.

love you ada.
(good stuff at Home btw, ty ada...sorry for the absence)
going to try the german flag on for size for awhile
zone

 

[zone]

Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

2. Man is not Totally Depraved.

3. Man has Redeemable Good.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

(Classical Arminians affirm Total Depravity, BTW.)

And... I am NOT Pelagian in any measure.

 

[zone]

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

2. Man is not Totally Depraved.

3. Man has Redeemable Good.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

(Classical Arminians affirm Total Depravity, BTW.)

And... I am NOT Pelagian in any measure.

LOL!
1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

i like it.

2. Man is not Totally Depraved.

can we go like this?:

2. unregenerate Man is Depraved.

depraved [dɪˈpreɪvd]
adj morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted depravedness [dɪˈpreɪvɪdnɪs] n

Adj.1.depraved - deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat" reprobate, perverse, perverted
corrupt - lacking in integrity; "humanity they knew to be corrupt...from the day of Adam's creation"; "a corrupt and incompetent city government"




i think TULIP is silly and unfortunate.
we still have to have shorthand.

there has to be some reason The Lord is redeeming some men for Himself.
but that's His own decision. and He is making them new.
who is going to argue?

i affirm monergism.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

by the time the 2nd Advent is at the door maybe we'll be okay with the term Total Depravity as we look around.
'parently its gonna get worse, not better.

(things look very different for me today after your posts pps...no going back now)

 

[davidschwarz]

Powerful wording, but from what I gather you want only to focus on what is seen and heard and leave out the spirit of God. It is rare to see an actual miracle take place, but then again, how rare is it? Perhaps wer all see them all thetime, and just because something coinsidentaly wonderful happens also conforms with scientific thought, doesn't mean that the power of god is absent. hink of it like an electronic circuit. All the parts of the cicuit board produce their functions, and are capable of doing wonderous things, yet we simply don't see the electicity that influences it because it is not visible to the human eye. That electricity is very much alike the spirit of God in this Universe. I also like the common sense aproach, because it point out peoples most common mistakes, but never shall i forget that god has power far beyong what i ca think, feel, or see. Although, as my spirit does see much of it happening, I am more than just spirit... I am also Earth, but what i choose to teach and to grow is my spirits awareness and understanding, not my mind or my flesh. I know I must sufer some of my stregnth to those more physical parts in order to achieve the things god ants from me, but as long a he knows I choose to be one willing to lose it all forhim at any given moment, then I contine my walk and daily life as normal as i can. Think about Abraham once, he had so many children at Gods will... You think God didn't give him a lot of desire for a woman? He would of had to, but I'm sure he gave him as much desire to train children about the spirit of god, and importance of sacrifice. Would you consider it lust? How many sessions with his wife do you hink it took before it becamne more of a chore than a desire? You speak of all desire as Evil, yet don't forget that the spirit has desire too, and while lust is not one of them, love, gowth, teaching, learning, creating, and children can and will be a desire of the spirit for some people, as this is what God gave them purpose to do. With that in mind, the same person will probably have struggles and battles with lust in his eartly flesh why maintaining his spirit desire, because we are not 100% spirit while we are here, and Satan will win a few battles with us before we achieve Gods devine plans.

 

[4runner]

LOL!
1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

1. Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation.

i like it.

2. Man is not Totally Depraved.

can we go like this?:

2. unregenerate Man is Depraved.

depraved [dɪˈpreɪvd]
adj morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted depravedness [dɪˈpreɪvɪdnɪs] n

Adj.1.depraved - deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat" reprobate, perverse, perverted
corrupt - lacking in integrity; "humanity they knew to be corrupt...from the day of Adam's creation"; "a corrupt and incompetent city government"

I can go with depraved, but not total depravity as described by Calvinist. And I agree that man must be drawn by God. However I believe God draws all men, and will not regenerate anyone that doesnt first answer yes to His invitation.

 

[shroom2]

I can go with depraved, but not total depravity as described by Calvinist. And I agree that man must be drawn by God. However I believe God draws all men, and will not regenerate anyone that doesnt first answer yes to His invitation.

How about that. I agree with you, 4runner.

 

[Grandpa]

Ha Ha. Slight Depravity. Is that like a little bit pregnant?

There are none that do good, no not one.

Only God is good. Everything that is good comes from Him.