Making a case for women in leadership
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Would anyone agree that there is blindness on some people in this OP?
When obvious context in scripture is overlooked, when scripture isn't investigated as to why one sex isn't allowed to do much when there's a huge shortage of ministers in the church, etc., etc., somebody is spiritually blind.
It's obvious that some churches aren't doing God's will at all in these last days.
It's obvious to me that as the Falling Away is increasing rapidly, more of these people are blind as well as reprobate concerning the faith.
If they are ignorant of their fate, how in the world are you going to change reprobate minds with truth?
YOU AREN'T.
When obvious context in scripture is overlooked, when scripture isn't investigated as to why one sex isn't allowed to do much when there's a huge shortage of ministers in the church, etc., etc., somebody is spiritually blind.
It's obvious that some churches aren't doing God's will at all in these last days.
It's obvious to me that as the Falling Away is increasing rapidly, more of these people are blind as well as reprobate concerning the faith.
If they are ignorant of their fate, how in the world are you going to change reprobate minds with truth?
YOU AREN'T.
This is the strongest argument against women leadership. Is it bests specifically for this reason that it is considered forbidden? Women have no 'force' to show? But I can see a glaring weakness in that argument when I consider that God uses the weak the confound the strong and foolish things to confound the wise.
There are so many leaders but there so few servants. Servant Leader. Drawn with the alef, which is a picture of an ox, that signifies a leader and also a 'laborer.' The Harvest is ripe!
Jesus told busy bee Martha to sit down, but so much more lovingly, and exampled Mary to her for 'choosing the good thing.' Mary was sitting at the Lord's feet, learning from Him! What?! Yeah! And Martha was worrying over her biscuits!
There are so many leaders but there so few servants. Servant Leader. Drawn with the alef, which is a picture of an ox, that signifies a leader and also a 'laborer.' The Harvest is ripe!
Jesus told busy bee Martha to sit down, but so much more lovingly, and exampled Mary to her for 'choosing the good thing.' Mary was sitting at the Lord's feet, learning from Him! What?! Yeah! And Martha was worrying over her biscuits!
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The sad part of all this nonsense preached by those who are against women in leadership positions in the Congregation is that they completely ignore everything else Paul stated about women. Again and again I point out ALL his sayings about women in his Epistles and they pretend it doesn't apply. Only the one statement about women in authority. That is truly sad.
As well, they completely ignore what Peter stated in his first Epistle about women. There is a small segment of believers who do follow most of what Paul and Peter stated in their Epistles, but even they do not teach ALL!
1 Peter, Chapter 3:
1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
Why do they NOT teach this from their Pulpits?
1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Why do they NOT teach this from their Pulpits? As well, these two verses make it clear women should NOT even own a Bible, much less reading it. Those who focus their Theology SOLY on the one passage about women having authority over men are deceiving their Congregations.
As well, they completely ignore what Peter stated in his first Epistle about women. There is a small segment of believers who do follow most of what Paul and Peter stated in their Epistles, but even they do not teach ALL!
1 Peter, Chapter 3:
1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
Why do they NOT teach this from their Pulpits?
1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Why do they NOT teach this from their Pulpits? As well, these two verses make it clear women should NOT even own a Bible, much less reading it. Those who focus their Theology SOLY on the one passage about women having authority over men are deceiving their Congregations.
Hello and thank you for the welcome!
The Bible doesn't state sexual persuasion as the reason for women not exercising authority over men, though. It's a false premise to build upon since the Bible already clearly states the order of creation is the reason for the hierarchy -
1 Tim 2:11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Cor 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
The Bible doesn't state sexual persuasion as the reason for women not exercising authority over men, though. It's a false premise to build upon since the Bible already clearly states the order of creation is the reason for the hierarchy -
1 Tim 2:11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Cor 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
yes but the order of which man and women are to be is not so black and white or else a women would not have been made a judge nor prophesy or preach like they did in the bible we cannot take pauls words out of context here read the full chapter to understand why he said what he did notice what was going on in the church at the time
And again just to clarify that there is no position of authoirty within the body of Christ not man nor women not jew nor gentile because
Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
So whether man or women while we can interpret pauls words If in doubt go to what Jesus says as he is the truth and Jesus says there is no such system
Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
So whether man or women while we can interpret pauls words If in doubt go to what Jesus says as he is the truth and Jesus says there is no such system
It's not at all a false premise, it's the meaning of authentein that makes sense of the passage in its context.
The wording of many English translations makes this the apparent reason. However, when you study the cultural context in which Timothy was leading, you see the flaw in that reasoning, and the sound reasoning in the view I hold. "Order of creation as the reason why women can't lead" is not it.
Again, there is no reasonable connection between Adam's prior creation and the idea that women can't lead. Such is a non sequitur.
The wording of many English translations makes this the apparent reason. However, when you study the cultural context in which Timothy was leading, you see the flaw in that reasoning, and the sound reasoning in the view I hold. "Order of creation as the reason why women can't lead" is not it.
Again, there is no reasonable connection between Adam's prior creation and the idea that women can't lead. Such is a non sequitur.
Hi Blain, and thanks for your response!
I'm seeing a confusion of roles which seems to be clouding the issue here. The pattern from Old to New Testaments is consistently the same: Men have authority when it comes to leading within the church. Questions to help reconcile these issues would be -
- Is an OT civil judge the same as an OT priest or NT leader serving within the temple/tabernacle/church? Well, no. Apples and orange - these are completely different roles. One OT judge does not negate/erase the plethora of NT scriptural instructions for the church.
- Is a prophet automatically a priest or leader within the church? No, these are again different roles. Some men were both priest and prophet. Women could prophesy but were never OT priests or NT leaders.
- Are women instructed to not have authority over men within the church? Yes.
- Are there instructions for or examples of female OT priests or female NT church leaders in the Bible? No, all instructions are for men.
- Did the Bible make a horrible mistake in leaving out instructions for female church leaders? Hopefully we all know the answer to that question.
- What is the reason for men having authority within the church? The order of creation, as plainly stated in the Bible.
- Can women witness and teach outside of church? Yes!
You are leaving out the full context:
Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
As others have already pointed out, this passage is addressing equality of salvation. It is not addressing organization for church meetings. Both of these things are true at the same time -
- All believers are saved sons of God through faith, belong to Christ, and are equally valued and loved.
- When believers meet for worship, God has established an order and hierarchy, which includes leadership roles for men only.
There are so many passages in the Bible addressing this issue and there's nothing confusing about them. Trying to make one passage fit a premise of 'sexual persuasion' in order to justify women having authority within church does not work. It also doesn't erase or explain away everything else God has said on the matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Take care!
Serious question: If an OT judge is the same as a priest, prophet, and pastor, then why didn't God just call them all judges?
If you're not willing to accept God has established different roles with different responsibilities, there's really nothing more I can bring to the table. Thanks and take care!
If you're not willing to accept God has established different roles with different responsibilities, there's really nothing more I can bring to the table. Thanks and take care!
The issue isn't that he didn't call them all judges the issue is the fact he put a women in the role of authority to begin with. if he had issue with women being in a certain position he would never have put them in a position such as a judge prophetess or preacher that is the point I am trying to make the scriptures do not say that one cannot be so it just says to not usurp a man in such a position which is what was going on in the church at the time women were speaking out of turn in church and there are plenty of scriptures saying how we are one in Christ and Jesus himself said in his kingdom there will be no one in authoirty
when in doubt listen to the words of Jesus.
when in doubt listen to the words of Jesus.
You completely misread my post. You're welcome to exit the conversation, but know that you do on your own error.
Further, I am not erasing or explaining away everything God has said on the matter; my position takes into account everything He has said and doesn't conveniently ignore certain passages that don't fit.
Further, I am not erasing or explaining away everything God has said on the matter; my position takes into account everything He has said and doesn't conveniently ignore certain passages that don't fit.