Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

Whoops

That is a lot of whoops but don't worry about it, the forum has been steadily getting worse for me in terms of throwing out constant errors. It is taking me an average of ten tries to get on and then half the time my posts won't post, or at least that it what appears to happen but then i find it has double posted.

It's all designed to teach us patience.

 

[sawdust]

"the answer of a good conscience toward God"

I can see water doing that on an emotional level but I'll rely on the word and the Spirit to clear my conscience.

 

[Cameron143]

Why would Jesus would command His followers to apply that which is symbolic when His death and resurrection paved the way for the reality? It would be a complete waste of time looking for water to baptize people when they could be evangelizing. And yes, I do think Phillip didn't understand how everything was to work initially along with the rest of the disciples. Why should anyone be surprised by that? They were told to go and make disciples of all the nations but then were taken aback when Cornelius, a Gentile, is incorporated. They had to learn the same way we all do and many a time it is through our mistakes that drives us back into the word of God to see where we went wrong.

Anyone who is not sealed with the Spirit doesn't belong to God. We are sealed when we believe, it is a part of what happens when we are baptized with the Spirit into Christ. Our experience does not teach us about God, it is that error that leads to cults. Our experience confirms God's word as true. A lot of the debates we have in this forum is because people rely on their experience to inform them of God's way rather than being informed by the word.

My life is what proclaims my faith, not getting wet. You see the command to be carried out by means of water, I see it carried out by means of teaching the truth. You can rely on water if you want, as for me I'll stick with the word and the Spirit to do what water can never do.

You gave no answer for why Philip baptized the eunuch in water. Why didn't Philip say don't worry about water, just find a good teacher?

You conflate the sealing of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit. They are not the same. One is inward, nonexperiential, and performed by the Holy Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:13. Through it we are placed into the body of Christ. The baptism with the Spirit is very experiential, done by Christ, and gives assurance and power to the believer...Ephesians 1:13-14. It is evidenced throughout the book of Acts when the Spirit falls on believers.

I don't rely on water, but on God. And I imagine your faith is characterized by obedience as well. Ascribing things to me that I don't believe doesn't help your argument. It merely shows the weakness of it.

 

[BillyBob]

why would God need to be baptized with His own Spirit?

​

Why would Christ need to be baptized at all – Water or Spirit?
Why would a voice come from heaven saying Matthew 3:17?
I believe that it was to announce to the world that Christ is the promised one!

Obviously you did not read my disclaimer below.....

 

[Musicmaster]

Why would Christ need to be baptized at all – Water or Spirit?
Why would a voice come from heaven saying Matthew 3:17?
I believe that it was to announce to the world that Christ is the promised one!

Obviously you did not read my disclaimer below.....

Christ HAD to be baptized, but not for the same reason as the Jews in the ancient Church.

As an Israeli, I've been made quite aware of the reasoning being that the priests of ancient Israel had to be cleansed at age 30...get the picture. Christ, for Him to become our High Priest, also fulfilled the cleansing ritual required by His own Law, at age 30...

MM

 

[posthuman]

I can see water doing that on an emotional level but I'll rely on the word and the Spirit to clear my conscience.

i was baptized because of a good conscience, not in order to achieve one - - i think that's completely in line with what Peter said about it.

 

[posthuman]

Why would Christ need to be baptized at all – Water or Spirit?
Why would a voice come from heaven saying Matthew 3:17?
I believe that it was to announce to the world that Christ is the promised one!

Obviously you did not read my disclaimer below.....

disclaimer..?

i agree it is signifying the beginning of His ministry, and signifying Who He is - but i almost had the impression that you were saying He received the Spirit at that time, which, i am not sure makes sense.

i believe He is never-not-God, so, He never lacked His own Holy Spirit.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

(1) The Israelites coming to John for baptism had no idea of a New Covenant. They were coming to identify with the coming Messiah he preached, a Messiah of the Old Covenant.
Au contraire, John's message and preparatory message baptism was not merely a rehash of the OT law and prophets. In fact, after the initial proclamation it was accompanied by the PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF THE MESSIAH HIMSELF. WHO OFFERED HIMSELF AS THE PROMISE OF REDEMPTION.

(2) The offer was made to all people: 'as it has been written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: “The voice of one shouting in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make straight His paths. 5 Every valley will be filled and every mountain and hill will be made low; the crooked will be made straight, and the rough into smooth paths; 6 and ALL FLESH will see the salvation of God.

(3) He had not come to renew the Mosaic covenant but to make a NEW COVENANT that could save anyone even all the nations:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [a]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34)

 

[sawdust]

You gave no answer for why Philip baptized the eunuch in water. Why didn't Philip say don't worry about water, just find a good teacher?

I did answer. He continued doing what he was used to doing. John's baptism (with water) was required to signify preparation for the coming Messiah but once Christ came (and went) was glorified, His baptism replaced John's. Water baptism was for Israel, the Church was/is to be baptized with the Spirit. Phillip, like the rest, had little clue as to what the significance of Christ's teaching meant in it's fullness. I pointed out in my other post Jesus told them to "go and make disciples of all nations". What did they think all those nations would be comprised of, Jews? Yet when Cornelius, a Roman (one of those nations) was baptized as they were with the Spirit they were shocked. Go figure! Yet we have Peter calling for water (even after they had received a far superior baptism) but then when he was recalling the incident and telling the others back in Jerusalem (because they too had obviously forgotten that Christ told them to make disciples of all nations), Peter suddenly remembers the word of the Lord.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Jesus told them before He ascended to include Gentiles and to stop with the water because the baptism His Church, that He said He would build, would receive a better baptism, one with real power to overcome not merely a symbol of what was to come.

You conflate the sealing of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit. They are not the same. One is inward, nonexperiential, and performed by the Holy Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:13. Through it we are placed into the body of Christ. The baptism with the Spirit is very experiential, done by Christ, and gives assurance and power to the believer...Ephesians 1:13-14. It is evidenced throughout the book of Acts when the Spirit falls on believers.

I conflate nothing. All I said was when we are baptized by the Spirit being sealed is a part of what happens to us. Baptism with the Spirit includes being filled bodily (indwelling), filled (led of the Spirit/under His influence), being sealed for the day of redemption, transferred from death to life (new birth), .. and I think I'm forgetting something but anyway.. it's why it's called "baptism" because we get utterly drenched with the Spirit of God. As far as experience, it is God's normal MO to be rather spectacular when doing something new ie. the Exodus, the Incarnation, but once He has our attention, He expects us to settle down and pay attention to His word even if it is spoken as a "still, small voice".

Everyone likes to point to Acts and think it must replicated for baptism with the Spirit to occur. Yet, even within Acts, is not replicated in each case. Tongues of fire only appear once and today, when you ask someone about their "tongues experience" they never prophesy as well.

There is an expectation that the Spirit is to be received upon believing. Acts 19:2 It is what Jesus promised would happen. John 14:16 If the Church doesn't live up to the promise, it is never a failing on God's part. Christ baptizes with the Spirit, our experience, or lack of it, does not negate His promise.

 

[Cameron143]

I did answer. He continued doing what he was used to doing. John's baptism (with water) was required to signify preparation for the coming Messiah but once Christ came (and went) was glorified, His baptism replaced John's. Water baptism was for Israel, the Church was/is to be baptized with the Spirit. Phillip, like the rest, had little clue as to what the significance of Christ's teaching meant in it's fullness. I pointed out in my other post Jesus told them to "go and make disciples of all nations". What did they think all those nations would be comprised of, Jews? Yet when Cornelius, a Roman (one of those nations) was baptized as they were with the Spirit they were shocked. Go figure! Yet we have Peter calling for water (even after they had received a far superior baptism) but then when he was recalling the incident and telling the others back in Jerusalem (because they too had obviously forgotten that Christ told them to make disciples of all nations), Peter suddenly remembers the word of the Lord.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Jesus told them before He ascended to include Gentiles and to stop with the water because the baptism His Church, that He said He would build, would receive a better baptism, one with real power to overcome not merely a symbol of what was to come.



I conflate nothing. All I said was when we are baptized by the Spirit being sealed is a part of what happens to us. Baptism with the Spirit includes being filled bodily (indwelling), filled (led of the Spirit/under His influence), being sealed for the day of redemption, transferred from death to life (new birth), .. and I think I'm forgetting something but anyway.. it's why it's called "baptism" because we get utterly drenched with the Spirit of God. As far as experience, it is God's normal MO to be rather spectacular when doing something new ie. the Exodus, the Incarnation, but once He has our attention, He expects us to settle down and pay attention to His word even if it is spoken as a "still, small voice".

Everyone likes to point to Acts and think it must replicated for baptism with the Spirit to occur. Yet, even within Acts, is not replicated in each case. Tongues of fire only appear once and today, when you ask someone about their "tongues experience" they never prophesy as well.

There is an expectation that the Spirit is to be received upon believing. Acts 19:2 It is what Jesus promised would happen. John 14:16 If the Church doesn't live up to the promise, it is never a failing on God's part. Christ baptizes with the Spirit, our experience, or lack of it, does not negate His promise.

The Ethiopian eunuch was part of the church. He made a profession of faith and was baptized in water. No mention is made of spiritual baptism nor is it recorded that the Spirit fell upon him. He simply believed and was water baptized. This wasn't before the resurrection of Jesus, but after. It is only your assumption that Philip didn't understand Jesus' teaching and not espoused in scripture.

You are still conflating the baptism with the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit. They are not the same thing, nor are they performed by the same member of the Godhead. They are different both in experience and what they accomplish.

 

[sawdust]

i was baptized because of a good conscience, not in order to achieve one - - i think that's completely in line with what Peter said about it.

Well, it it says through the resurrection of Jesus Christ so it seems to me our good conscience is achieved through faith in Him. It also says water was the former thing (that's what antitype means). It's being baptized into the life of Christ that we are able to present a good conscience. Because He lives, we live, even though we know we are guilty and deserve death.

1 Peter 3:21
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Honestly, I can't think of a better bible verse that reveals water is no longer the method of baptism yet most still insist on doing it even when they agree it does nothing except give an emotional buzz or appeases their own conscience. Go figure.

 

[sawdust]

The Ethiopian eunuch was part of the church. He made a profession of faith and was baptized in water. No mention is made of spiritual baptism nor is it recorded that the Spirit fell upon him. He simply believed and was water baptized. This wasn't before the resurrection of Jesus, but after. It is only your assumption that Philip didn't understand Jesus' teaching and not espoused in scripture.

You are still conflating the baptism with the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit. They are not the same thing, nor are they performed by the same member of the Godhead. They are different both in experience and what they accomplish.

My assumption? I showed you how the disciples were told to go and make disciples of ALL nations. Those nations were Gentiles. It went right over their heads because we keep seeing them surprised the Gentiles were included. I showed you how Peter admits he forgot what the Lord taught them. I am not assuming anything, I am looking at the evidence and putting two and two together.

There is only one baptism and it is with the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

All four Gospel writers agree and from Christ's own lips we are baptized once with the Holy Spirit.

You're making stuff up to fit your understanding by trying to have two baptisms, go do your homework.

 

[Cameron143]

My assumption? I showed you how the disciples were told to go and make disciples of ALL nations. Those nations were Gentiles. It went right over their heads because we keep seeing them surprised the Gentiles were included. I showed you how Peter admits he forgot what the Lord taught them. I am not assuming anything, I am looking at the evidence and putting two and two together.

There is only one baptism and it is with the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

All four Gospel writers agree and from Christ's own lips we are baptized once with the Holy Spirit.

You're making stuff up to fit your understanding by trying to have two baptisms, go do your homework.

Show me where Philip was surprised. He wasn't a disciple; he was an evangelist.

Pay attention...
1 Corinthians 12:13...by one Spirit we are baptized into the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body.
Matthew 3:11...He will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is doing the baptizing, not the Spirit. These are not the same thing.

 

[Musicmaster]

(1) The Israelites coming to John for baptism had no idea of a New Covenant. They were coming to identify with the coming Messiah he preached, a Messiah of the Old Covenant.
Au contraire, John's message and preparatory message baptism was not merely a rehash of the OT law and prophets. In fact, after the initial proclamation it was accompanied by the PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF THE MESSIAH HIMSELF. WHO OFFERED HIMSELF AS THE PROMISE OF REDEMPTION.

(2) The offer was made to all people: 'as it has been written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: “The voice of one shouting in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make straight His paths. 5 Every valley will be filled and every mountain and hill will be made low; the crooked will be made straight, and the rough into smooth paths; 6 and ALL FLESH will see the salvation of God.

(3) He had not come to renew the Mosaic covenant but to make a NEW COVENANT that could save anyone even all the nations:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [a]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34)

That covenant was to be and will be with us who are of Israel, not Gentiles. The establishment of that new covenant is yet to come in the kingdom that is to come. The fall of Israel and the revealing of the mystery hidden in God since before the world was, that interrupted the establishment of that covenant. Thieving Gentiles who think they can steal from Israel what is ours alone, dream on. It will not happen as you have been taught by your false teaching pastors and teachers.

BTW

 

[sawdust]

Show me where Philip was surprised. He wasn't a disciple; he was an evangelist.

Strewth! Now an evangelist isn't a disciple? You really go to extremes to justify yourself. We're all disciples. It's what Jesus told the Apostles to do, "go make disciples". They make disciples through the teaching of the word and God makes evangelists out from the disciples. (among other roles).

So Peter and the other apostles were surprised but Philip the evangelist had it all together, he knew exactly what the Lord meant by every word He said. Sure, you believe what you want.

Pay attention...

You can keep you patronizing to yourself. The Holy Spirit is God, not some tool that Christ uses to do His bidding. The Cor. passage can say by the Spirit because it is by means of the Spirit we are baptized, that is how we are baptized with the Spirit. He is the One taking us and placing us into Christ because He is the One sent by the Son with the backing of the Father.

You have two baptisms, actually you have three because you also want to include water. If you're happy to live with that, go for it. You don't answer to me.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

 

[Mem]

Everyone likes to point to Acts and think it must replicated for baptism with the Spirit to occur. Yet, even within Acts, is not replicated in each case. Tongues of fire only appear once and today, when you ask someone about their "tongues experience" they never prophesy as well.

I'm inclined to want to argue the last statement but I don't want to take us on a tangent on the topic.

With that said, this statement is found in scripture within Acts 18, speaking of Apollos, an eloquent man, well versed in scripture (but that is not said to imply that present company is not):

25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus,e though he knew only the baptism of John. 26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

That Apollos taught accurately, but Priscilla and Aquila taught 'more accurately' should make us wonder at the significance of what "though he knew only the baptism of John' is.

 

[BillyBob]

Thieving Gentiles who think they can steal from Israel what is ours alone, dream on. It will not happen as you have been taught by your false teaching pastors and teachers.

Can you explain further?

 

[Cameron143]

Strewth! Now an evangelist isn't a disciple? You really go to extremes to justify yourself. We're all disciples. It's what Jesus told the Apostles to do, "go make disciples". They make disciples through the teaching of the word and God makes evangelists out from the disciples. (among other roles).

So Peter and the other apostles were surprised but Philip the evangelist had it all together, he knew exactly what the Lord meant by every word He said. Sure, you believe what you want.




You can keep you patronizing to yourself. The Holy Spirit is God, not some tool that Christ uses to do His bidding. The Cor. passage can say by the Spirit because it is by means of the Spirit we are baptized, that is how we are baptized with the Spirit. He is the One taking us and placing us into Christ because He is the One sent by the Son with the backing of the Father.

You have two baptisms, actually you have three because you also want to include water. If you're happy to live with that, go for it. You don't answer to me.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Jesus did more than 1 baptism Himself. He baptized with the Spirit and with fire...Matthew 3:11. The one baptism isn't what you think. The passage in Ephesians 4 is more extensive than just verse 5. Verse 4 mentions the Spirit, verse 5 mentions Christ, and verse 6 mentions the Father. One Lord, one faith, one baptism all speak of our relationship to Christ...faith in the Lord. This is spoken of in Romans 4 that we are buried with Christ in baptism into death. This is the symbolism of water baptism. We go to our death when we go beneath the water and rise to newness of life in Christ when we come out. It is spiritual as well in that it is the Spirit who actually places us into Christ, but one baptism doesn't negate the different baptisms mentioned in scripture, but identifies the one in view in the passage.

 

[Musicmaster]

Can you explain further?

Let's start with this, and see if it brings understanding as to the answer:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The original covenant was with Israel, and the new covenant was/is also for Israel:

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

This is where most Gentiles get their excitement for the idea that they too are a part of the "new covenant."

Let's look more broadly:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8, 13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ...
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

See all that? The New Covenant was to be made with Israel and Judah, not Gentiles, and yet Gentiles think they can step right in and force the word of God as referring to them. This is nothing but replacement theology trash that fills the Sunday school rooms of false teachers and auditoriums ringing forth the false teachings of many a false pastor. The key wording in the verses, not to mention the book names that flatly give away who the audience is...Hebrews - what Gentile is a Hebrew? The others speak for themselves.

Does that help?

MM

 

[sawdust]

I'm inclined to want to argue the last statement but I don't want to take us on a tangent on the topic.

With that said, this statement is found in scripture within Acts 18, speaking of Apollos, an eloquent man, well versed in scripture (but that is not said to imply that present company is not):

25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus,e though he knew only the baptism of John. 26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

That Apollos taught accurately, but Priscilla and Aquila taught 'more accurately' should make us wonder at the significance of what "though he knew only the baptism of John' is.

Sorry Mem but I don't know what that has to do with what you quoted.