Master of Divinity Student

[hornetguy]

It is sadly interesting that whole sects of believers have elevated the very least of the spiritual gifts to be the most important... the defining gift for a believer.

Especially since not every believer is to speak in tongues at all.

 

[studier]

1. I never said that you need demonic deliverance. I also realize that I have presuppositions, we all do. I do, however, attempt to put them to the side when I approach a subject. For instance, when I started Bible college in my bachelor's degree, I was way more charismatic then I am today. I find myself more reserved and lean a lot more on scriptural integrity than experiential. By the way, for your information, I am not young (THOUGH I WISH I WAS!)

2. We can agree to disagree on the scripture. That is fine. I believe, once more, tongues were spoken and it never says they were interpreted nor does it imply it in the Greek.

3. To go back to one, I said that if you go off of your reasoning is doing the same thing that people who believe Christians can be demonically possessed. They take a scripture, they twist it into what it does not say, and then propose that it means it can happen. Though the Bible may not say it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Pointless, especially after dragging out the videos of what you seem to think is credible. And it doesn't take until winter for someone with 2 years of solid training in Greek to look at the language to see what it says. The time you've taken to post these responses is way more than enough to review the Text.

You are likely young to me. But I do thank you for opening this topic once again.

While awaiting your winter lull to arrive, having a small bit (all I could stomach) of those linked videos in mind, having what I see as your incorrect interpretation of language in mind, and having some background studies of updated work on Paul's use of rhetoric also in mind (which may be one of the currently most valuable research studies going on), I used the last few hours to revisit some of the Scriptures re: tongues. Having just concluded, I'm favoring Cessationism a bit more than I was yesterday. I'm retaining an opening against C, but it's a very, even more qualified one than just a few hours ago.

The time He gives us to redeem is an amazing gift and process.

 

[GWH]

It is sadly interesting that whole sects of believers have elevated the very least of the spiritual gifts to be the most important... the defining gift for a believer.

Especially since not every believer is to speak in tongues at all.

Yes, and their hard-core teaching has been dividing the church since the 1950s.
Thankfully some charismatics are NOT hard-core and acknowledge that love is the primary gift
and the one by which Spirit-filling is indicated.

 

[studier]

After reading this young man's post I believe he is relying on the teaching and writing of others and has not taken the time to question them and study for himself.
The first thing I say to anyone who comes into my Bible study class is never trust what anyone teaches, even me, until you have thoroughly study all Scripture related to the subject.

I used to instruct similarly. I told listeners I never wanted to hear of them saying Scripture means something because I (me) said so. Rather, they were to be able to go to Scripture and explain what it means and why. And I always asked for questions and was dismayed at how few I got. I think many are just going through the motions of attendance.

 

[John146]

Know that GRFS is the same for Jews, Gentiles and Christians.

All directions in scripture are not about eternal salvation.

 

[John146]

I do not think that I understand scripture 100%. I simply love scripture and to learn. I have already learned a few things simply responding to people and doing a bit of research!

First point in studying: Ask yourself, to whom is the writer speaking to, and to whom does this doctrine apply.

 

[John146]

No there not; tongues are for the Gentiles too.

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been
poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.

Mark 16:17
These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will
speak with new tongues.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking
with tongues and prophesying. (disciples at Ephesus)

1 Corinthians 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks
in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

In every instance you posted (except early Acts), tongues were given for a sign to the Jews that Gentiles were also getting saved and receiving the Holy Ghost.

 

[TrustandObey]

I believe that the context of Spiritual gifts were the reason for Pauls address. I would implore you to read Acts 10, and ask yourself the question of why does it say they received the Baptism and their speaking in tongues - but even more importantly, why did it say that the Tongue was not interpreted? It also did not state that unbelievers were around either. Acts 19. Approach it with an open heart and to understand it.

Okay but what about the question?

You wrote that you wish for people to ask you questions so why not simply answer them.

It's okay to comment but to not answer the question gives people pause.

 

[GWH]

All directions in scripture are not about eternal salvation.

Well, maybe not all, but most are, although many are about how the saved should behave,
because salvation is both a beginning (seeking/repentance/conversion) and a process (finding/confession/sanctification).

 

[John146]

Well, maybe not all, but most are, although many are about how the saved should behave,
because salvation is both a beginning (seeking/repentance/conversion) and a process (finding/confession/sanctification).

Nope, most directions in scripture are about living not salvation.

 

[GWH]

Nope, most directions in scripture are about living not salvation.

Please provide examples of Jesus and Paul divorcing salvation from sanctification or "living",
so we can see where you are coming from, because everything I can think of connects the two.

 

[NightTwister]

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Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Cor 14:22

Do you have many unbelievers in your church??

Every church has some.

 

[Taylorj2]

First point in studying: Ask yourself, to whom is the writer speaking to, and to whom does this doctrine apply.

Well of course, that's proper protocol for exegesis.

 

[Lamar]

Hello, everyone,

I have announced before that I am a master of divinity student enrolled in University. I will be obtaining my doctorate after this in theology. I have found it engaging and fun to do studies outside of schools, primarily to answer questions. A few things you should know that may provoke questions: I am a spirit-filled believer in the context of Charismatic denomination meaning I do believe in speaking in tongues. I am a continuationist and believe all the gifts are for today! I also believe a Christian can lose their salvation if they do not walk or live the life we are supposed to live in Christ.

All that to possibly start the thread. But I want anyone to ask me anything, and I will do my best to respond with a supported response. It will be a bit slower, because I am not trying to simply debate but explain why I believe what I BELIEVE with supported conclusions that may provoke you to think or look into an idea or subject, even if you disagree. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ! So, please, ask away! I will answer anything!

So, please, ask away! I will answer anything

Why was the Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well not considered Jewish by Jesus? IOW, why are Samaritans not Jewish?

 

[Inquisitor]

It is sadly interesting that whole sects of believers have elevated the very least of the spiritual gifts to be the most important... the defining gift for a believer.

Especially since not every believer is to speak in tongues at all.

Agree, some church organizations believe all must speak in tongues which is clearly wrong.

 

[Inquisitor]

In every instance you posted (except early Acts), tongues were given for a sign to the Jews that Gentiles were also getting saved and receiving the Holy Ghost.

So your saying that the following verses support Gentiles only speaking in tongues. To demonstrate to the
Jews that tongues are for the Jews only?

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking
with tongues and prophesying. (disciples at Ephesus)

1 Corinthians 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks
in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

Paul is speaking to the next generation in the Corinthian church. Paul wrote this first letter to the Greeks
in the very late fifties. That refutes the idea that tongues were for the Jewish church only. Paul's letter to Corinth
warns the Gentiles not to forbid speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians was addressed to a Gentile church.

Why would God command the Gentile church not to forbid speaking in tongues, twenty five years after
Pentecost?

 

[Inquisitor]

First point in studying: Ask yourself, to whom is the writer speaking to, and to whom does this doctrine apply.

To whom is the author speaking?

That may be more difficult than you imagine in some of the letters in the N.T.

Here is an example from the letter to the Romans where context is critical.

To whom is Paul speaking to in chapter two of the letter to the Romans?

I asked Google and here is what Google said.

In Romans chapter 2, Paul is speaking primarily to Jewish believers in Rome. He addresses their
potential hypocrisy and their reliance on the law as a means of justification before God.
While the entire letter is addressed to the church in Rome, chapter 2 specifically targets
the Jewish component within that community.

Do you agree?

 

[studier]

Very powerful, love tongues and their use.

I can see that. I can also see what you do with Scripture to support what you love. Which is why children should be oriented first to the Word early on.

 

[Ouch]

I will start from the bottom and work my way up. I do believe there is one God coexistent in three different persons - this is very clear from John 13-17. There, you understand that Jesus explains that He is working with both His Father (God) and the Holy Spirit (God), and that we must work alongside Him (God) to produce fruit that will keep us. It goes a bit deeper, but this would probably be a book by the time I get done with all of it. I would also recommend reading the council of Nicaea in 325 ad, in which the early Church responded to a heresy Arianism which says that Jesus is a created being and not the same as God the Father (This is what modern day Jehovah witnesses and the united Pentecostal movement.) This was condemned by the early Church as the rest of the body refuted the claims.

You are correct when saying Paul is speaking to the saved, but he is correcting doctrine and their understanding of right teaching. The baptism in the Body of Christ was part of that knowledge, and this is also why I believe John 3:5 speaks more in the context of Salvation Romans 10 speaks of Salvation and what it is after the book of Acts.


Now for the fun stuff, let's break down Acts 2:38

I love the word Baptizo - which is baptize in English and represents a person is submerged or immersed in

In the context, if you think of it repentance and Baptism are hand in hand. The moment a person converts or reprents of their sin (Which in the first century, there was not a prayer of salvation. It literally means to change the way they think - they changed their actions and represented Christ moving forward.) Peter is saying Repent and be Baptized in Christ (The language is essential because to be baptized in Christ is a work performed by the Holy Spirit!) the word

The word Kai represents the word and - and literally connects the first part to the second part of the verse, be saved first repent and be baptized in Christ (The body. Both are salvation) and (the conjunction connecting the two) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (or i.e. the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is Christ Jesus baptizing those into the Holy Spirit - which is empowerment.

Thank you, I also don't like writing books LOL. Sorry if to long.

Jehovah Witnesses and the united Pentecostal movements' beliefs are not the same.

Charles Taze Russell alterter the KJV bible to suit him and started the Jehovah witnesses in 1870's

Jehovah witnesses believe Jesus is a god, but not Almighty God.
Foundation is the key,
NWT John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
They don't believe they need to be filled with the spirit.
They don't believe speaking in tongues is for today.
They baptized in JESUS titles FOR signifying devotion to GOD's will and his organization. NOT to get rid of sins.

Yes men are in charge of the UPC but follow HIS WORD the why HE wrote it.
United Pentecostals did NOT alter the KJV, they know that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.
They believe they need to be filled with the Holy Ghost as it is a part of being reborn. John 3:5 Acts 2:38.
They believe that being baptized in necessary as it's the only way to remove our sins and a part of being reborn. Acts 2:38, 22:16
They understand Jesus is not a separate person of the Godhead, but that the Godhead is in Him. Scripture says this; "In Him (Jesus) dwells all the fulness of the Godhead." (Col. 2:9-12) "...And great is is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And, the Acts 2:38 reference to baptism in the name of Jesus is the NT water baptism. The Acts 10 account makes this point: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Acts 10:47-48

IN All NT accounts show being born again involves both water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Councils of Nicaea and Trent- Established the idea of God being 3 different persons and changing the biblical way of water baptizing to line up with that idea. It's not surprising since scripture says teaching of false doctrines was going to happen. (Acts 20:29-30, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3, Jude 1:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:1-3)

Jesus said strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few will find it. And broad is the way that leads to destruction and many will go that way. I think this warning is about following man-made traditions rather than accepting what the bible actually says and continuing on that path even though it is less traveled.
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

To address GOD in 3 different persons, not one? I know it gets deep, one could say verses proving both. But they can't because the bible is not the author of confusion.

My favorite, JESUS speaking to Nicodemus. JESUS is ON the earth and he is also in Heaven!!
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Acts 2:38 says what it says and is very clear. Three different things',

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, (ONE) Repent, and (TWO)be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and (THREE)ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When we repent, we change our mind and go a different direction.
When we get baptized in JESUS name we do it in faith that he will keep HIS word and forgive our sins.
When we get the Holy Ghost THAT IS WHAT HE DOES, we have no control over it. Some get the Holy Ghost before they get baptized in JESUS name, others right after, other later maybe days?

GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[John146]

Please provide examples of Jesus and Paul divorcing salvation from sanctification or "living",
so we can see where you are coming from, because everything I can think of connects the two.

Are you saying sanctification or right living is a part of salvation? Once a man is saved, that man should go on to a life pleasing to the Lord. These directions to live a life pleasing to the Lord is what most of Paul's letters is about. Yes? Maybe we are just confused with each other's position.