The mark of the beast?

[Inquisitor]

That's a great sign. Go ahead and follow what they teach though.

The literal reading and understanding of the text.

I don't follow anyone.

 

[Follower777]

The catholic church set up the counter reformation and sadly the majority of the protestant and Christian world have joined hands with the Catholic church forgetting the past.

None of that is correct nor does it address what I said about what is found in scripture. Not very sure? How can scripture not be very sure? You say that because you have a different view of it than what scripture actually says. LOL! That is pure confusion and Adventist propaganda.

TMS is spot on about "majority of the protestant and Christian world have joined hands with the Catholic church forgetting the past."

As your comments "ewq1938" are a good example of "the forgetting" ... exampled by your not remembering ( & probably not understanding) World History, in a SPIRITUAL context.
e.g. The Counter Reformation.

Your "forgetting" and misunderstanding are direct results of the efforts of the Catholic Church's Counter Reformation, to cause confusion and misdirection, to obfuscate societies understanding of The RCC being the Anti-Christ. The Counter Reformation is damage control, so that the RCC, can continue to influence and control how people think spiritually, with the Popes being the "moral authority" here on Earth, rather than Christ, our Lord and Savior.

A good question would be, WHY is ewq1938 promoting the The Counter Reformation.

 

[Follower777]

Here is the problem you have.

John was writing to many churches in the first century.

John described the great city as Babylon.

The Babylonians, led by Nebuchadnezzar II, destroyed the First Temple in Jerusalem and exiled
many Judeans to Babylon between 597–586 BCE. This event, known as the Babylonian exile, occurred
in waves following the Babylonian sieges of Jerusalem.

Then in the first century Rome (Babylon) destroyed the second temple and sacked Jerusalem.

Do you understand why John referred to the great city as Babylon. What could be more obvious?

Rome (Babylon) had killed Jesus, Paul, and the saints. Roman emperors even proclaimed themselves
to be God, Caligula and Domitian, Julius Caesar after his death was God.

The context in Revelation is unavoidable and Rome was much more severe on Jerusalem than the
Babylonian captivity.

You can project Revelation into the future and you would be in error if you did not.

The pattern of persecution and the declaration of a personal deity is hard wired into social
history.

1. Babylon’s Historical Characteristics;

Feature (as described in Revelation & History)

Babylon signifies A powerful empire that dominates the known world – Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar conquered much of the Near East. Representing a dominant religious‑political system that exerts control over many nations.

Idolatry and false worship – The Babylonian altar was filled with images and the people worshiped idols. Symbolizes a system that replaces true worship of God with a man‑made religion centered on human authority.

Economic oppression – Babylon imposed heavy taxes, used forced labor, and profited from luxury trade. Mirrors a church that amasses wealth, levies tithes/fees, and influences secular economies.

Persecution of the faithful – Those who refused Babylon’s worship were slain or exiled. Points to a religious organization that suppresses dissent, punishes those who reject its doctrines, and enforces conformity.

Mystery and allure – Babylon was famed for its splendor, attracting travelers and merchants. Describes a charismatic institution whose cultural influence draws people in, masking its underlying spiritual corruption.

2. Nebuchadnezzian Archetype

• Absolute authority: Nebuchadnezzar claimed divine right to rule, demanding obedience.
• Pride and self‑exaltation: He called himself “the most high,” a hallmark of the present day Roman Church, that places itself above God, ( e.g. Popes claiming to be "God on Earth")

These traits reappear in the papacy, where the Pope claims supreme authority over the universal Church and, historically, exercised temporal power (e.g., the Papal States, coronations of monarchs, the Inquisition).

3. The Roman Catholic Church as “New Babylon”

1. Historical continuity – Trace a line from the early Christian “Babylon” (the apostolic church) through the Great Schism and the rise of Rome as the center of Christendom, culminating in the medieval papacy.
2. Doctrinal “idolatry” – Highlights practices such as the veneration of saints, Marian devotion, and the doctrine of transubstantiation as replacing the worship of the living Christ with reverence for created things.
3. Political dominance – The Vatican’s diplomatic relations, its role in European politics, and the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire illustrate the same kind of worldly authority Nebuchadnezzar wielded.
4. Economic influence – Accumulation of vast land holdings, banking activities, and the collection of indulgences echo Babylon’s wealth and exploitation.
5. Persecution of dissent – The Inquisition, excommunication, and the suppression of reform movements (e.g., the Protestant Reformation) reflect Babylon’s violent opposition to those who refuse its worship.

4. The Prophetic Fulfillment
In Biblical eschatology, the “fall of Babylon” (Revelation 18) predicts a future collapse of this religious‑political system. The Roman Catholic Church, as the embodiment of “new Babylon,” would experience a decisive judgment before the second coming of Christ, leading to the restoration of true worship.

5. Why the Parallel Matters

• Warning against complacency: By seeing the same patterns repeat, believers are urged to remain vigilant and not be swayed by outward splendor, and the RCC's call to "spiritual conformity", an ecumenical movement, where we all " Go Along, to Get Along", to the RRC's "standards" of course.
• Call to fidelity: The contrast underscores the importance of adhering to the biblical gospel, obedience to God, Rev 14:7 and having the Faith OF Jesus, Rev 14:12 as understood and proclaimed by Adventists, being modern day Protestant Reformers, rather than aligning with a system deemed biblically corrupted, the Antichrist Spirit, controlling the World NOW.
• Hope in ultimate justice: The prophetic narrative assures that, despite Babylon’s temporary power, divine judgment will ultimately vindicate the faithful.

Bottom Line
Historic Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar is a prototype of a great, idolatrous, and oppressive empire. The Roman Catholic Church reproduces those same characteristics—worldwide political influence, doctrinal deviations, economic power, and persecution of dissenters—making it the “new Babylon” foretold in Revelation. Readers need to recognize these parallels, stay true to biblical teachings, and anticipate the eventual divine judgment that will bring down this modern archetype, ...

... As mentioned in Revelations 14: 6-12
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

 

[ewq1938]

TMS is spot on about "majority of the protestant and Christian world have joined hands with the Catholic church forgetting the past."

IMO it's imaginary. Most Protestants I know of, IRL and online, don't even consider Catholics as saved Christians.

 

[Inquisitor]

The sea beast is a kingdom, you know with the ten horns that are kingdoms within 7 heads/mountains. That's a massive empire, not a man. Even in Daniel the ten horned beast is a kingdom. It's the two people associated with little horns/horn that is the singular person in both Daniel and Rev. I honestly don't understand how people can make such a massive error thinking a ten kingdomed empire is someone one person.

ten horned beast is a KINGDOM/empire
the only singular person mentioned in Daniel 7 and Rev 13 is the leader of that.

Daniel 7 and Rev - 10 horned beast is a kingdom!
The leader the little horn in Daniel, and the false prophet in Rev.

Revelation 17:9-11
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,
he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and
is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

The Sea Beast is an eighth king and one of the seven kings.

The Harlot is the great city of Rome.

 

[Inquisitor]

1. Babylon’s Historical Characteristics;

Feature (as described in Revelation & History)

Babylon signifies A powerful empire that dominates the known world – Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar conquered much of the Near East. Representing a dominant religious‑political system that exerts control over many nations.

Idolatry and false worship – The Babylonian altar was filled with images and the people worshiped idols. Symbolizes a system that replaces true worship of God with a man‑made religion centered on human authority.

Economic oppression – Babylon imposed heavy taxes, used forced labor, and profited from luxury trade. Mirrors a church that amasses wealth, levies tithes/fees, and influences secular economies.

Persecution of the faithful – Those who refused Babylon’s worship were slain or exiled. Points to a religious organization that suppresses dissent, punishes those who reject its doctrines, and enforces conformity.

Mystery and allure – Babylon was famed for its splendor, attracting travelers and merchants. Describes a charismatic institution whose cultural influence draws people in, masking its underlying spiritual corruption.

2. Nebuchadnezzian Archetype

• Absolute authority: Nebuchadnezzar claimed divine right to rule, demanding obedience.
• Pride and self‑exaltation: He called himself “the most high,” a hallmark of the present day Roman Church, that places itself above God, ( e.g. Popes claiming to be "God on Earth")

These traits reappear in the papacy, where the Pope claims supreme authority over the universal Church and, historically, exercised temporal power (e.g., the Papal States, coronations of monarchs, the Inquisition).

3. The Roman Catholic Church as “New Babylon”

1. Historical continuity – Trace a line from the early Christian “Babylon” (the apostolic church) through the Great Schism and the rise of Rome as the center of Christendom, culminating in the medieval papacy.
2. Doctrinal “idolatry” – Highlights practices such as the veneration of saints, Marian devotion, and the doctrine of transubstantiation as replacing the worship of the living Christ with reverence for created things.
3. Political dominance – The Vatican’s diplomatic relations, its role in European politics, and the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire illustrate the same kind of worldly authority Nebuchadnezzar wielded.
4. Economic influence – Accumulation of vast land holdings, banking activities, and the collection of indulgences echo Babylon’s wealth and exploitation.
5. Persecution of dissent – The Inquisition, excommunication, and the suppression of reform movements (e.g., the Protestant Reformation) reflect Babylon’s violent opposition to those who refuse its worship.

4. The Prophetic Fulfillment
In Biblical eschatology, the “fall of Babylon” (Revelation 18) predicts a future collapse of this religious‑political system. The Roman Catholic Church, as the embodiment of “new Babylon,” would experience a decisive judgment before the second coming of Christ, leading to the restoration of true worship.

5. Why the Parallel Matters

• Warning against complacency: By seeing the same patterns repeat, believers are urged to remain vigilant and not be swayed by outward splendor, and the RCC's call to "spiritual conformity", an ecumenical movement, where we all " Go Along, to Get Along", to the RRC's "standards" of course.
• Call to fidelity: The contrast underscores the importance of adhering to the biblical gospel, obedience to God, Rev 14:7 and having the Faith OF Jesus, Rev 14:12 as understood and proclaimed by Adventists, being modern day Protestant Reformers, rather than aligning with a system deemed biblically corrupted, the Antichrist Spirit, controlling the World NOW.
• Hope in ultimate justice: The prophetic narrative assures that, despite Babylon’s temporary power, divine judgment will ultimately vindicate the faithful.

Bottom Line
Historic Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar is a prototype of a great, idolatrous, and oppressive empire. The Roman Catholic Church reproduces those same characteristics—worldwide political influence, doctrinal deviations, economic power, and persecution of dissenters—making it the “new Babylon” foretold in Revelation. Readers need to recognize these parallels, stay true to biblical teachings, and anticipate the eventual divine judgment that will bring down this modern archetype, ...

... As mentioned in Revelations 14: 6-12
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

The Catholic Church no longer controls other countries.

That ended centuries ago.

Revelation 17:9-11
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,
he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and
is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

You have departed from the book of Revelation and are following a church interpretation.

The Beast is an eighth king and one of the seven kings.

Where is that in your church playbook?

You have to follow the Revelation text carefully.

Is there anyone who bothers to read the text?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Catholic Church no longer controls other countries.

That ended centuries ago.

Revelation 17:9-11
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,
he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and
is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

You have departed from the book of Revelation and are following a church interpretation.

The Beast is an eighth king and one of the seven kings.

Where is that in your church playbook?

You have to follow the Revelation text carefully.

Is there anyone who bothers to read the text?

Jerusalem is also said to be situated on 7 hills

 

[Inquisitor]

Jerusalem is also said to be situated on 7 hills

John uses symbols to describe Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also their Lord was crucified.

But John uses a different symbol for the other great city.

Revelation 18:21
Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,
“So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

Do you see the two different cities described?

Revelation 18:19
And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying,
‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth,
for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Jerusalem did not make any ships at sea rich by her wealth.

In fact, Jerusalem did not have a port.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

John uses symbols to describe Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also their Lord was crucified.

But John uses a different symbol for the other great city.

Revelation 18:21
Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,
“So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

Do you see the two different cities described?

Revelation 18:19
And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying,
‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth,
for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Jerusalem did not make any ships at sea rich by her wealth.

In fact, Jerusalem did not have a port.

It doesn't say Babylon has ports.

 

[Inquisitor]

It doesn't say Babylon has ports.

Revelation 18:19
And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying,
‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth,
for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

John is certainly not talking about Jerusalem here.

A ship owner would not gain wealth transporting olives from Jerusalem.

Look at the cargo going into and out of Rome.

Revelation 18:11-13
And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more
— cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet,
and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and
bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine
and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves
and human lives.

John would not have been talking about Jerusalem because Jerusalem was plundered in AD 70.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Revelation 18:19
And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying,
‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth,
for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

John is certainly not talking about Jerusalem here.

A ship owner would not gain wealth transporting olives from Jerusalem.

Look at the cargo going into and out of Rome.

Revelation 18:11-13
And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more
— cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet,
and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and
bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine
and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves
and human lives.

John would not have been talking about Jerusalem because Jerusalem was plundered in AD 70.

It's talking about the merchants of the earth who made rich by her wealth, not her products. Think banking

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

John would not have been talking about Jerusalem because Jerusalem was plundered in AD 70.

If you're a preterist in this regard then there's no common ground for discussion.

 

[Inquisitor]

It's talking about the merchants of the earth who made rich by her wealth, not her products. Think banking

That's not what the text states.

 

[Inquisitor]

If you're a preterist in this regard then there's no common ground for discussion.

Not a Preterist.

Partial Preterism is a better fit.

I have no favorite eschatology interpretation.

 

[Follower777]

The Catholic Church no longer controls other countries.

That ended centuries ago.

Revelation 17:9-11
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,
he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and
is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

You have departed from the book of Revelation and are following a church interpretation.

The Beast is an eighth king and one of the seven kings.

Where is that in your church playbook?

You have to follow the Revelation text carefully. Is there anyone who bothers to read the text?

Pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, FOLKS, and if God Willing, you'll be able to see the World with it's main players, through the "spiritual lens" awareness, revealing ( The Spiritual Revelation of ) the Whore of Babylon, 1st, 2nd Beasts, Kings of the Nations, understanding the Dragon, Beast and False Prophet, and your relationship in them. To be able to understand the relationship of the Whore ( unfaithful church ), 1st Beast ( The same Church / State ) and Harlot ( this same whore ), that you guys are SPIRITUALLY fumbling around about.


Gal 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Matt 13: 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For truly I say to you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them. 
¶
18 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 17:9-11
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes,
he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and
is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

The Sea Beast is an eighth king and one of the seven kings.

Nom the sea beast with ten horns is a kingdom, just as it is in Daniel 7. The king/ruler over the ten horned beast is the false prophet. The FP has two little horns which is a nod to Daniels little horn who also is the king/ruler over the ten horned beast in Daniel 7.

The Harlot is the great city of Rome.

Nope. Rome fell long ago but the endtimes Babylon will exist until close to the second coming.