Im assuming you believe the entire bible is true and flows. When reading see if it lines up with God's characteristics, the prophets, and Jesus words. You may find something interesting.
Does Jesus and Paul contradict each other?
- Thread starter Nufan
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Nuf, you're nuts!
Paul's teaching contradicts Catholicism and Gnosticism.
Furthermore, you would not even know about Jesus and be a Christian but for the ministry of Paul,
so you follow him whether you like it or not.
No, I believe the OT indicates that God chose the Jewish culture for the purpose of providing Messiah, through whom the world would be blessed or saved (Gen. 22:18, Isa. 42:6, 49:6, Joel 2:28& 32, Mic. 4:2-3, Zeph. 3:8-9, Zech. 2:11, 14:9&16), and the NT proclaims that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah or Christ (Acts 2:36, Rom. 1:1-4, Heb. 1:1-4, 3:3-6). It is tragic that the person God has ordained to be the head of one worldwide body of believers (John 17:20-23, Eph. 1:9-10 & 3:6, Col. 1:18-20, Phil. 2:9-11) is rejected by so many who claim to be theists. And it is ironic that this gemstone, which is the foundation and cornerstone of ultimate reality (Eph. 2:20), is the stumbling-stone (1Pet. 2:6-8) to faith in God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) for many souls (1Cor. 1:22-25). The reason (per 2Cor. 4:3-4) is that the god of this world or Satan blinds their minds (cf. 1Cor. 2:14). Messiah/Christ is the key stone.
I also believe a crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.
The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7) and “Repent” (Matt. 4:17). This indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to repent and seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not repenting or rejecting God’s salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). Jesus defined saving faith as love for God (Matt. 22:37) or reflecting God’s love (John 15:9-12, 1John 4:19). All humans hate or sin, but every sinner/hater has the opportunity to repent or have saving faith/love (John 6:29, Rom. 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16 & 5:5-19, Gal. 5:22-23).
Thus, I believe sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts 28:24) “They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.'” (Acts 28:25-27a, cf. 2Tim. 3:7)
Regarding the human heart, I believe we can see that it is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue forever (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).
GRFS may be denoted by the use of the Greek word kerygma, meaning proclamation or preaching, referring to the good news (Gospel) concerning salvation to heaven and from a just hell (cf. Rom. 1:16, Gal. 1:6-12, Col. 1:21-23). This Gospel was preached by Peter (in Acts 2:22-24) and summarized by Paul (in 1Cor. 15:1-8). The salient points include: Jesus was a man, accredited by God (to be Messiah), who died on a cross, but who was raised or resurrected from the dead. Messiah is the Way to heaven.
An obvious question to ask at this point is, “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.) If God loves the world (John 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per John 1:1f.) they have received.
I believe more, but perhaps this is enough to share in one post.
You haven't done your research. Are you fermiluar with Marcion. Are you slso fermiluar with terms like sanctification or theosis. What about mortification of the flesh to achieve this.
The "Gnostic view of Paul" is a scholarly and debated interpretation that considers his teachings to be a foundation for or an early form of Gnosticism due to their dualistic nature, emphasis on a spiritual rather than physical reality, and his claim of receiving direct revelation.
Yes, I would have a PhD in theology but I failed the oral exam because of insufficient memory.
See 1Tim. 2:3-5: Only One Mediator between God and man.
Although there is a broad spectrum of definitions, "apocalypticism" generally
refers to a world view comprised of two core elements: "a lively belief in the supernatural
world and the expectation of eschatological salvation" In early
Jewish apocalypticism, human decisions and actions are embedded in a cosmological
framework where people believe in both judgment beyond death and the potential
influence of angels and demons on their lives. Thus, "apocalypticism" designates _
movements which have "adopted the perspective of apocalyptic eschatology" for their
ideology. This world view is an extrapolation based on literature referred to as
"apocalypses"
One widely accepted definition of "apocalypse" was put forward in 1979, when
the Society of Biblical Literature Genres Project defined an "apocalypse" as: "a genre of
revelatory literature with a narrative framework, in which a revelation is mediated by an
otherworldly being to a human recipient, disclosing a transcendent reality which is both
temporal, insofar as it envisages eschatological salvation, and spatial insofar as it
involves another, supernatural world." In 1986, David Hellholm proposed the following
addition to the definition: "intended for a group in crisis with the purpose of exhortation
and/or consolation by means of divine authority"= evil, future era = good (limited to the chosen), was taken with
increasing seriousness, for the visionary group could understand
the present situation only as unmitigated evil, and had come to be
completely disillusioned with the prospects of realizing its ideal
program of restoration in the present world. . .. they were forced
to look for the hope of ultimate fulfillment of their ideal, toward a
new, decisive act of Yahweh in which he would first eliminate the
evil through destruction of the old order and then establish a new
order of justice. Since the object of that saving act was no longer
Israel as a whole, but only a faithful remnant, it is obvious that that
act could no longer be delineated strictly within the context of
plain history, but would increasingly be seen within the context of
the cosmic-mythic sphere of the Divine Warrior. This is Gnosticism
Now was Paul a Gnostic, let’s examine what the word ‘Gnostic’ means.
as a noun - a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead.
as an adjective -
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. possessing knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
Gnosis the root of Gnostic simply means KNOWLEDGE, and in the early centuries CE, there arose many groups professing sacred knowledge of secret mysteries.
Now consider what Paul writes in his letters..
11 For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; 12 for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 1:11
on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all. Romans 2:16
“Now to God who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages” - Romans 16:25
This is but a sampling, it’s been long understood there is an inherent conflict in the ‘gospel of Paul’ and the gospel of Jesus as taught in Matthew and other gospels. Paul identifies what he writes as “His Gospel”.. revealed to him and a mystery that was kept secret. Certainly based upon the definition of Gnostic, Paul clearly qualifies.
The question is only ‘what kind of Gnostic’ was Paul?
The Dead Sea Scrolls contain all kinds of documents, not just Scripture. For instance, calendars, commentaries,
songbooks, community regulations, and/or historical documents unearthed at Qumran should also not be
considered to be part of the Bible. The Qumran library was much more than just Biblical manuscripts
Everything Christ spoke can be backed by the prophets.
Zechariah 14:4 states that "his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives" and that the mountain will split in two, from east to west, creating a large valley. This event is described as occurring "on that day" and is often interpreted in Christian theology as a reference to Christ's second coming.
Isaiah 65:17-25
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.
Paul can't be backed. He had secret knowledge through a private vision.
Paul also claimed that the rapture would happen in his lifetime.
Christ believed in new Jerusalem descending on earth. We would then be given new bodies and we would have a restored eden.
No, just because Paul referred to receiving knowledge of a mystery (Eph. 1:9-10) does not make Paul a Gnostic.
In fact, Paul contrasted the "secret wisdom" of the Gospel (1Cor. 2:7) with the "words of human wisdom" (1Cor. 1:17),
which likely included Gnostic philosophy. Paul's revelation was based on Jewish history culminating with Christ's
atonement (Rom. 3:21-5:1), and focused on eliminating sins and attaining moral righteousness via cooperation
with God's Holy Spirit (Rom. 10:4, 1Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5:22-23, Eph. 4:17-24, Phil. 3:18-4:1) rather than on esoteric knowledge.
I disagree. Christ spoke of the new way of living that Paul preached. The revelations Paul received were from Christ for the Church, not for Israel, it was a mystery to the OT prophets so never spoken of by them. Yet, salvation by grace through faith and a personal, intimate relationship with the Lord was there throughout the OT, so not wholly new.
There is no claim Paul made regarding the rapture in his lifetime. He viewed it as imminent which means there was no prophecy to be fulfilled prior to the Resurrection of the Church. It could have occurred in his lifetime, it could happen in ours or it could happen in a thousand years time. It remains imminent.
What was promised to Israel and what was promised to the Church are two separate destinies within God's Kingdom. Two children in the same family.
I really don't know why I would be considered as the bad guy here. We are commanded to test the scriptures.
1 John 4:1
Romans 12:2
1 Thessalonians 5:21
2 Corinthians 13:5
Acts 17:11
James 1:2-3
Colossians 2:8
Psalm 26:2
Paul does not pass my test. Not yet anyways. Im also not alone. Many people rejected Paul for the same reasons and many where reconciled to Paul after his trial. Again this is according to Paul.
There is also 2 Peter but Most biblical scholars believe 2 Peter is a forgery (pseudepigraphon) because its author was not the apostle Peter. They cite significant differences in writing style and vocabulary compared to 1 Peter, the letter's use of Jude, its references to Paul's letters as scripture, and the fact that it seems written for a later time than Peter's lifetime. However, there is debate, with some arguing for authenticity or a different understanding of early Christian writing practices.
1 John 4:1
Romans 12:2
1 Thessalonians 5:21
2 Corinthians 13:5
Acts 17:11
James 1:2-3
Colossians 2:8
Psalm 26:2
Paul does not pass my test. Not yet anyways. Im also not alone. Many people rejected Paul for the same reasons and many where reconciled to Paul after his trial. Again this is according to Paul.
There is also 2 Peter but Most biblical scholars believe 2 Peter is a forgery (pseudepigraphon) because its author was not the apostle Peter. They cite significant differences in writing style and vocabulary compared to 1 Peter, the letter's use of Jude, its references to Paul's letters as scripture, and the fact that it seems written for a later time than Peter's lifetime. However, there is debate, with some arguing for authenticity or a different understanding of early Christian writing practices.