Universal Laws of Heavenly Bodies
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It does not say anything about going back IN THE SKY.
Some various translations:
NIV I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
KJV Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down
NASB “Behold, I will cause the shadow on the stairway, which has gone down with the sun on the stairway of Ahaz, to go back ten steps.” So the sun’s shadow went back ten steps on the stairway on which it had gone down.
OJB Hineni, I will bring again the tzel (shadow) of the hama'alot (the steps), which has gone down with the shemesh on the Ma'alot Achaz (sundial of Ahaz), so that it goes eser ma'alot (ten steps) backward. So the shemesh went back eser maalot (ten steps) on the ma'alot on which it had gone down.
Or if you prefer, with Strong's HERE
I don't see any mention of the sky.
As for Joshua, I return to my previous argument about Isaiah and Hezekiah. Unless God provided them with specific scientific understanding, how would they know the difference between the sun moving and the earth moving? Did they even know the earth was round? Furthermore, as discussed previously, when a supernatural event occurs, who am I to say that it must follow natural laws? Maybe God shifted the entire continent, maybe he stopped the world from turning, maybe he MADE the earth turn, maybe he flattened the world out and then balled it back up. No matter what God did, unless you wish to claim that God gave these men specific scientific knowledge, all you have shown is that they used their senses to explain what was happening. The result of all of these actions would be the same to a person on that continent who has to sleep a night in full sunlight. It has been shown that our senses are not always sufficient to ''sense'' what is going on. Or do you now wish to claim that germs don't exist? That stars are just specks of light?
Some various translations:
NIV I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
KJV Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down
NASB “Behold, I will cause the shadow on the stairway, which has gone down with the sun on the stairway of Ahaz, to go back ten steps.” So the sun’s shadow went back ten steps on the stairway on which it had gone down.
OJB Hineni, I will bring again the tzel (shadow) of the hama'alot (the steps), which has gone down with the shemesh on the Ma'alot Achaz (sundial of Ahaz), so that it goes eser ma'alot (ten steps) backward. So the shemesh went back eser maalot (ten steps) on the ma'alot on which it had gone down.
Or if you prefer, with Strong's HERE
I don't see any mention of the sky.
As for Joshua, I return to my previous argument about Isaiah and Hezekiah. Unless God provided them with specific scientific understanding, how would they know the difference between the sun moving and the earth moving? Did they even know the earth was round? Furthermore, as discussed previously, when a supernatural event occurs, who am I to say that it must follow natural laws? Maybe God shifted the entire continent, maybe he stopped the world from turning, maybe he MADE the earth turn, maybe he flattened the world out and then balled it back up. No matter what God did, unless you wish to claim that God gave these men specific scientific knowledge, all you have shown is that they used their senses to explain what was happening. The result of all of these actions would be the same to a person on that continent who has to sleep a night in full sunlight. It has been shown that our senses are not always sufficient to ''sense'' what is going on. Or do you now wish to claim that germs don't exist? That stars are just specks of light?
The verse mentions the shadow and says it will go back., then it mentions WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, the sun going back ten degrees. THE SUN, not the shadow...THE SUN.
A lot of maybe's there.
Scripture tells us EXACTLY what happened...this is the NARRATIVE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT....not any MAN.
(Joshua 10:13) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
You dont want to take the plain meaning of scripture.
WHO CARES what special knowledge any person has? GOD tells us what happened. The sun stood still.
A lot of maybe's there.
Scripture tells us EXACTLY what happened...this is the NARRATIVE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT....not any MAN.
(Joshua 10:13) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
You dont want to take the plain meaning of scripture.
WHO CARES what special knowledge any person has? GOD tells us what happened. The sun stood still.
I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
“Behold, I will cause the shadow on the stairway, which has gone down with the sun on the stairway of Ahaz, to go back ten steps.” So the sun’s shadow went back ten steps on the stairway on which it had gone down.
Hineni, I will bring again the tzel (shadow) of the hama'alot (the steps), which has gone down with the shemesh on the Ma'alot Achaz (sundial of Ahaz), so that it goes eser ma'alot (ten steps) backward. So the shemesh went back eser maalot (ten steps) on the ma'alot on which it had gone down.
I'm not impressed that you were able to find one translation that states that the sun went down. All the rest refer directly to the angle/step on the sundial or to the sunlight, not the physical sun.
I'm sorry, it appears as though you have either no desire, or no ability to comprehend the argument I am putting forth. If you wish to demonstrate that you are able to understand and actually argue against my points instead of against some invisible argument I would be most willing to reengage.
“Behold, I will cause the shadow on the stairway, which has gone down with the sun on the stairway of Ahaz, to go back ten steps.” So the sun’s shadow went back ten steps on the stairway on which it had gone down.
Hineni, I will bring again the tzel (shadow) of the hama'alot (the steps), which has gone down with the shemesh on the Ma'alot Achaz (sundial of Ahaz), so that it goes eser ma'alot (ten steps) backward. So the shemesh went back eser maalot (ten steps) on the ma'alot on which it had gone down.
I'm not impressed that you were able to find one translation that states that the sun went down. All the rest refer directly to the angle/step on the sundial or to the sunlight, not the physical sun.
I'm sorry, it appears as though you have either no desire, or no ability to comprehend the argument I am putting forth. If you wish to demonstrate that you are able to understand and actually argue against my points instead of against some invisible argument I would be most willing to reengage.
QUOTE~
Professor Eilam Gross of the Weizmann Institute of Science, described the "Big Bang" theory in terms amazingly consistent with the story of the Creation in the Torah and Kabbalah literature.
~
We briefly review the reference to just some of these concepts in the Torah and the Kabbalah:
"The origin of the universe at a single point"
According to the Kabbalah of Ha'ari, the emergence of the worlds began at a single point that occurred after the first "contraction" of the "infinite light" that filled all space prior to the Creation. According to the Kabbalah, the beginning of the creation of the physical world was in the formation of the primal material, and immediately after its formation the dimension of time was created. The process continued with the formation of the different types of individual creatures, including the different materials of which they are composed and time allotted to each of them.
"The ancient light trapped within plasma"
As early as Rashi's commentary of Genesis, we find mention that the Creator hid the ancient light of the six days of the Creation. Since then, this light has been referred to in Kabbalah literature as "the hidden light" (or ganuz). The hidden light is revealed in the teachings of the Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism to those who learn it, and will be revealed to all humanity in the future.
"The universe spread out and cooled"
Kabbalah literature explains the interpretation of the name of the Creator,SH-D-I: she'amar le'olamo dai – He who told the world enough(!). According to Jewish-Kabbalah tradition about the creation of the world, in the beginning, the heavens stretched out infinitely, until the Creator told them "enough"(!) and stopped the spreading of the heavens and the entire universe – a process parallel to restriction, cooling and gelling.
SOURCE: The big Bang, Kabbalah in the wourld
Professor Eilam Gross of the Weizmann Institute of Science, described the "Big Bang" theory in terms amazingly consistent with the story of the Creation in the Torah and Kabbalah literature.
~
We briefly review the reference to just some of these concepts in the Torah and the Kabbalah:
"The origin of the universe at a single point"
According to the Kabbalah of Ha'ari, the emergence of the worlds began at a single point that occurred after the first "contraction" of the "infinite light" that filled all space prior to the Creation. According to the Kabbalah, the beginning of the creation of the physical world was in the formation of the primal material, and immediately after its formation the dimension of time was created. The process continued with the formation of the different types of individual creatures, including the different materials of which they are composed and time allotted to each of them.
"The ancient light trapped within plasma"
As early as Rashi's commentary of Genesis, we find mention that the Creator hid the ancient light of the six days of the Creation. Since then, this light has been referred to in Kabbalah literature as "the hidden light" (or ganuz). The hidden light is revealed in the teachings of the Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism to those who learn it, and will be revealed to all humanity in the future.
"The universe spread out and cooled"
Kabbalah literature explains the interpretation of the name of the Creator,SH-D-I: she'amar le'olamo dai – He who told the world enough(!). According to Jewish-Kabbalah tradition about the creation of the world, in the beginning, the heavens stretched out infinitely, until the Creator told them "enough"(!) and stopped the spreading of the heavens and the entire universe – a process parallel to restriction, cooling and gelling.
SOURCE: The big Bang, Kabbalah in the wourld
Only because thats what you WANT to believe. Shemesh means sun. The physical sun.
I've got plenty of scripture talking about the sun moving.
Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."
15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."
19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."
28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."
32:31..... "...the sun rose...."
Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."
22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."
22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."
Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."
Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."
16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."
23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."
24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."
24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."
Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."
8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."
10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."
10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."
10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."
12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."
8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."
9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."
14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."
19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."
II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."
3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."
23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."
I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."
I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."
II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."
Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."
Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."
Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."
19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."
19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."
50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."
104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."
104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."
113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down
and hasteth to the place where he arose...."
Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."
38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."
38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."
41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."
59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."
Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."
Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."
Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."
Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."
Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."
Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."
Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."
Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."
13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."
Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."
4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."
16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."
Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."
Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."
James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."
Now you just show me ONE VERSE describing the earth moving. JUST ONE!
Why should you believe scripture when it says the SON is risen from the grave when you dont believe the SUN rises?
Dunno what your issue is. The miralce involves the sun standing still in the sky.
I've got plenty of scripture talking about the sun moving.
Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."
15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."
19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."
28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."
32:31..... "...the sun rose...."
Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."
22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."
22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."
Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."
Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."
16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."
23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."
24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."
24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."
Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."
8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."
10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."
10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."
10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."
12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."
Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."
8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."
9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."
14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."
19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."
II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."
3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."
23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."
I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."
I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."
II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."
Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."
Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."
Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."
19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."
19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."
50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."
104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."
104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."
113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down
and hasteth to the place where he arose...."
Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."
38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."
38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."
41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."
59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."
Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."
Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."
Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."
Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."
Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."
Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."
Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."
Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."
Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."
13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."
Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."
4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."
16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."
Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."
Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."
James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."
Now you just show me ONE VERSE describing the earth moving. JUST ONE!
Why should you believe scripture when it says the SON is risen from the grave when you dont believe the SUN rises?
Dunno what your issue is. The miralce involves the sun standing still in the sky.
There are others of us following along who don't have a pretermined position on this who would like to see more than rhetoric and debate. I've entertained a number of cosmological possibilities through the years, as well as this related topic.
Even though there are various views of types of inspiration of scripture, I'm not convinced that most are driven by their faith in God's Word without accommodating some degree of scientific concordism.
Strange is the only one quoting scripture and has posed simple questions about mathematic formulations for measuring distance and speed in the cosmos. Will somebody answer the questions, please?
Even though there are various views of types of inspiration of scripture, I'm not convinced that most are driven by their faith in God's Word without accommodating some degree of scientific concordism.
Strange is the only one quoting scripture and has posed simple questions about mathematic formulations for measuring distance and speed in the cosmos. Will somebody answer the questions, please?
(Genesis 1:16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
(Genesis 1:17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
He SET them. Strongs concordance offers Set (FORTH) as one possible translation of:
נתן
nâthan
naw-than'
So, we know the moon orbits the earth. God SET it forth in its course.
He uses the same word for the SUN TOO!
(Psalms 19:4) Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
(Psalms 19:5) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
(Psalms 19:6) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Tell me....is ANYTHING in all the heavens hidden from the heat of the sun?
(Genesis 1:17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
He SET them. Strongs concordance offers Set (FORTH) as one possible translation of:
נתן
nâthan
naw-than'
So, we know the moon orbits the earth. God SET it forth in its course.
He uses the same word for the SUN TOO!
(Psalms 19:4) Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
(Psalms 19:5) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
(Psalms 19:6) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Tell me....is ANYTHING in all the heavens hidden from the heat of the sun?
A
I've had to learn the habit of responding to nonsense since coming to CC. I usually didn't before.
Asserting that we've never actually visited the moon is a false assertion but I'm not going to spend 100 posts in this thread providing you the documentation that proves that to you. If you've dug a hole in your backyard and are insisting the "guvment" is lying about going to the moon while waiting for "rooskies" to drop the bomb still while saying with a straight face that nonsensical conspiracy theories are well thought out then you're most likely not a good investment of my time. Seek professional care and do the human gene pool a favor by not marrying your cousin. This part of my post has been a public service announcement.
Now back to the subject, there are several mirrors on the Moon, mostly left there by NASA Apollo missions. They are actually designed for visible light (lasers), not radio. The basic design is called a "corner reflector".
If you arange 3 mirrors in a shape like the corner of a rectangular box, with the reflectors on the inside, then any light which hits the reflectors, at essentially any angle, will bounce off each mirror and end up heading back exactly the direction from which it came. This makes such a mirror arrangement very useful, because you always get a nice strong reflection.
Corner reflector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is one place to start learning more about corner reflectors.
Here's the first one that was left and how it's used: What Neil & Buzz Left on the Moon - NASA Science
For descriptions of the reflectors left on the Moon by the Apollo 11, 14, and 15 missions, see Welcome to the NSSDC!
For some information about how the reflectors were used to measure the distance to the Moon, start here:
Lunar Laser Ranging experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and here:
Retroreflector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Asserting that we've never actually visited the moon is a false assertion but I'm not going to spend 100 posts in this thread providing you the documentation that proves that to you. If you've dug a hole in your backyard and are insisting the "guvment" is lying about going to the moon while waiting for "rooskies" to drop the bomb still while saying with a straight face that nonsensical conspiracy theories are well thought out then you're most likely not a good investment of my time. Seek professional care and do the human gene pool a favor by not marrying your cousin. This part of my post has been a public service announcement.
Now back to the subject, there are several mirrors on the Moon, mostly left there by NASA Apollo missions. They are actually designed for visible light (lasers), not radio. The basic design is called a "corner reflector".
If you arange 3 mirrors in a shape like the corner of a rectangular box, with the reflectors on the inside, then any light which hits the reflectors, at essentially any angle, will bounce off each mirror and end up heading back exactly the direction from which it came. This makes such a mirror arrangement very useful, because you always get a nice strong reflection.
Corner reflector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is one place to start learning more about corner reflectors.
Here's the first one that was left and how it's used: What Neil & Buzz Left on the Moon - NASA Science
For descriptions of the reflectors left on the Moon by the Apollo 11, 14, and 15 missions, see Welcome to the NSSDC!
For some information about how the reflectors were used to measure the distance to the Moon, start here:
Lunar Laser Ranging experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and here:
Retroreflector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pneuma - I have no predetermined position other than I don't read the Bible as a scientific text. Does it make God less loving if the sun moves and the earth doesn't? Does it make the miracle of a full day of sunshine any less amazing? Would the israelites have missed signs from God if they were told that the sign would be the world ceasing to spin for a day? Was God trying to explain physics to Joshua; was he trying to deceive man by not spending chapters to explain that the when it appears as though the sun is stationary it actually means that the earth has stopped spinning? God is supernatural, the laws of nature bend at His will; this is clear. While Jesus was on earth he explained heavenly things in terms that humans could understand. Can I with out a doubt say that God chose a similar means of explaining His supernatural actions? I see no reason that the Father would have seen a need to explain to men HOW he accomplished His supernatural acts. Would they have even cared? Did the Hebrew language even have sufficient words to convey the difference between the earth spinning and the sun moving?
As for questions about measuring distance and speed, I'm not sure that I know what questions you're wanting answers to.
As for questions about measuring distance and speed, I'm not sure that I know what questions you're wanting answers to.
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A
Scripture doesn't go against reality. Reality doesn't go against scripture. We have special revelation from God (e.g. cannonized scripture) and general revelation (e.g. nature) and they are in perfect harmony.
A perfect understanding is to understand how they are perfectly in union. So if you are using scripture to make assertions that go against nature, actually misrepresenting nature to fit your views, then you probably aren't going to get many of us who understand these subjects spending inordinate amounts of our valuable time contesting with you for very long (especially if your reputation is that of a recalcitrant trollish character [e.g. the strange one]).
We have people in other places and spaces that are interested in learning how the pieces really fit together that don't waste our time with nonsense.
Yet for the discussion's sake, it's important to introduce the discussion properly at some point and the Blue Letter Bible does a good job of that with it's presentation of the nine creation views in Christiandom:
Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs
A perfect understanding is to understand how they are perfectly in union. So if you are using scripture to make assertions that go against nature, actually misrepresenting nature to fit your views, then you probably aren't going to get many of us who understand these subjects spending inordinate amounts of our valuable time contesting with you for very long (especially if your reputation is that of a recalcitrant trollish character [e.g. the strange one]).
We have people in other places and spaces that are interested in learning how the pieces really fit together that don't waste our time with nonsense.
Yet for the discussion's sake, it's important to introduce the discussion properly at some point and the Blue Letter Bible does a good job of that with it's presentation of the nine creation views in Christiandom:
Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs
.....they don't know my Doc......