The Way of Salvation and Eternal Life

[NewLifeInChrist]

The issue of whether there are works that we are required to have done first in order to become saved as the result is different from the issue of whether there are works that are part of the content the gift of being saved. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of our gift of being saved is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sins (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. Someone can’t possess the gift of salvation from sin while their life is still directed at being a doer of sin.

I pretty much agree with what you said here. But I would like to hear more about what you mean by, "Someone can’t possess the gift of salvation from sin while their life is still directed at being a doer of sin." It seems like this saying has buzz-words ("their life is still directed at being a doer of sin") that need to be explained since there are no sinless human beings on the planet. How do you differntiate between the sinners whose lives are directed towards sin and the sinners whose lives are not directed towards sin?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If faith alone is sufficient then what need have I of any action? God doesn't know the depth of my conviction? Why must my "actions speak louder than words" if faith alone is sufficient for salvation? Scripture doesn't teach sola fide. Never did

If a person rests all his hope on Christ, then he will cease from his works that he previously pursued in order to gain salvation. If James saw a person working hard for his salvation, he might tell them that their actions prove their profession of faith in Christ is dead.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

who is preaching down people here? me?
Who do you think will enter the Kingdom of Heaven? people who stubbornly disobey God, who do not want to listen to him? Does the death of Christ instantly made people righteous? Of course Not.

Did God and Jesus ever say to be Instantly be Holy? In this corrupt evil world is that truly possible to achieve perfection?

Have I said in any of my posts that I am perfect or even righteous? Certainly Not!

Now what does make it possible to progress to the Goal, eternal Life? Do you know?

No one becomes sinless the moment they believe. Jesus never taught that. He never said a person is made perfect in one instant. He spoke about a way, a walk, a life that grows day by day.

Jesus asked a simple question, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46, NKJV). This shows that calling Him Lord is not enough. Listening and obeying matters.

Does this mean we are perfect? No. Jesus knew His followers would stumble. That is why He taught mercy, repentance, and forgiveness. He said, “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance” (Matthew 9:13, NKJV). Repentance is not a one time word. It is a change of heart and a new way of living.

Jesus explained what real growth looks like when He said, “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit” (Matthew 7:18, NKJV). Fruit does not appear in one moment. It grows over time. In the same way, obedience grows as faith grows.

John, one of the twelve, said it clearly and simply, “He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6, NKJV). Walking means movement. Step by step. Not instant perfection.

Jesus never lowered God’s standards, but He also never crushed people. He said, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28, NKJV). This rest is not permission to disobey. It is strength to obey.

So no, this is not teaching sinless perfection. It is teaching faithful direction. A heart that listens. A life that turns away from sin. A person who falls but gets up again and keeps following Christ.

Jesus said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, NKJV). Enduring means continuing. Learning. Obeying. Trusting God until the end.

Jesus never promised an easy path. He was honest with everyone who wanted to follow Him. He said, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24, NKJV). Taking up the cross means choosing God’s way over our own way, every day. It is not about being perfect, but about being willing to die to sin and live for God.

Jesus also knew that we cannot do this by our own strength. That is why He promised help from God Himself. Before leaving His disciples, He said, “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of truth” (John 14:16–17, NKJV).

This promise shows something very important. God does not just command us to change and leave us alone. He sends His Holy Spirit to help us change from the inside. Jesus said again, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26, NKJV).

The Holy Spirit teaches us, reminds us of Jesus’ words, and gives us strength to obey them. This is how real transformation happens. Not instantly perfect, but slowly changed. A new heart learning to love what God loves and hate what God hates.

Jesus summed it up clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15, NKJV). Love comes first, obedience follows, and the Holy Spirit makes this possible.

So the Christian life is not legalism, and it is not sinless perfection. It is a daily walk. Carrying the cross. Following Jesus. Being taught and shaped by the Holy Spirit. And pressing forward toward eternal life, just as Jesus taught.

So you know that the new man is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) and that the old man "grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22)? Do you know of any verses that say the new man becomes more righteous and holy over time or that the old man changes to be less corrupt over time? The answer is that there are none. Why? Because we are new creatures in Christ (2 Cor 5:17). We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit (Rom 8:9). We are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). We have been made the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). And the devil has no power to corrupt us (1 Jn 5:18). So, yes, the gift of a righteous and holy life is ours when God gives birth to us by His Spirit (John 3:6). And it is instantaneous. All we have to do is to serve Him in the newness of that life (Ro 7:6).

 

[vassal]

So you know that the new man is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) and that the old man "grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22)? Do you know of any verses that say the new man becomes more righteous and holy over time or that the old man changes to be less corrupt over time? The answer is that there are none. Why? Because we are new creatures in Christ (2 Cor 5:17). We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit (Rom 8:9). We are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). We have been made the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21). And the devil has no power to corrupt us (1 Jn 5:18). So, yes, the gift of a righteous and holy life is ours when God gives birth to us by His Spirit (John 3:6). And it is instantaneous. All we have to do is to serve Him in the newness of that life (Ro 7:6).

Scripture clearly shows that growth in wisdom, obedience, and favor with God is real and expected, even for those chosen by Him. This truth is seen first in Jesus Himself. The Bible says, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men” (Luke 2:52). This verse does not speak of sin, but of growth. Jesus was already holy, yet He still grew. Earlier it says, “And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him” (Luke 2:40). If growth were unnecessary after being born of God, Scripture would never speak this way about Jesus. His life shows that walking with God is lived day by day, learning and obeying more fully over time.

The same pattern is seen in Samuel, who was given to the Lord as a child and served Him early in life. Scripture says, “And the child Samuel grew before the LORD” (1 Samuel 2:21). This shows a life already dedicated to God, yet still growing in His presence. A little later it says, “So the child Samuel grew in stature, and in favor both with the LORD and men” (1 Samuel 2:26). Favor with God increasing means relationship deepening, understanding growing, and obedience becoming stronger.
John the Baptist is another clear example. He was chosen before birth, filled with purpose, and prepared by God, yet Scripture still says, “So the child grew and became strong in spirit” (Luke 1:80). Strength of spirit is not instant. It develops as a person listens to God and walks faithfully.

Jesus Himself taught that life in God must continue and grow. He said, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me” (John 15:4). He then added, “He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit” (John 15:5). Fruit comes over time, not all at once. Jesus also said, “Every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit” (John 15:2). Pruning would not be needed if growth were finished in a single moment.

The Old Testament speaks the same way. “The path of the just is like the shining sun, that shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18). Light increasing shows progress, not a fixed state. God also promised, “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33). Writing takes time. It shows God working within a person as they walk with Him.
All these verses speak with one voice. New life from God is real and powerful, but it is not motionless. God gives life, and that life grows. Wisdom increases, obedience deepens, and favor with God becomes stronger as a person walks faithfully with Him, just as Jesus taught and lived.

Blessings.

 

[Soyeong]

I pretty much agree with what you said here. But I would like to hear more about what you mean by, "Someone can’t possess the gift of salvation from sin while their life is still directed at being a doer of sin." It seems like this saying has buzz-words ("their life is still directed at being a doer of sin") that need to be explained since there are no sinless human beings on the planet. How do you differntiate between the sinners whose lives are directed towards sin and the sinners whose lives are not directed towards sin?

Repentance is not about perfection but about direction. Someone who life is directed as being a doer of sin does not have the goal of living in obedience to God's law, but when they repent they are redirecting their live towards being a doer of God's law. It doesn't mean that they will live in perfect obedience to it, but it does mean that they will repent if they fail short. Our gift of salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed as being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of God's law, which is what Titus 2:11-13 is in regard to.

 

[NightTwister]

But the obedience is a free choice of the will otherwise it's not done out of love. AGAIN James says works complete faith which by definition means solar fida is an error

No it doesn't. Dead faith is no faith at all. Works follow living faith, so Sola Fide is still valid.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Scripture clearly shows that growth in wisdom, obedience, and favor with God is real and expected, even for those chosen by Him. This truth is seen first in Jesus Himself. The Bible says, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men” (Luke 2:52). This verse does not speak of sin, but of growth. Jesus was already holy, yet He still grew. Earlier it says, “And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him” (Luke 2:40). If growth were unnecessary after being born of God, Scripture would never speak this way about Jesus. His life shows that walking with God is lived day by day, learning and obeying more fully over time.

Which one is it? It can't be both. I say the first one is right and the second is wrong. Growing spiritually is about becoming more mature over time, it is not about sinning less or "obeying more fully".

The same pattern is seen in Samuel, who was given to the Lord as a child and served Him early in life. Scripture says, “And the child Samuel grew before the LORD” (1 Samuel 2:21). This shows a life already dedicated to God, yet still growing in His presence. A little later it says, “So the child Samuel grew in stature, and in favor both with the LORD and men” (1 Samuel 2:26). Favor with God increasing means relationship deepening, understanding growing, and obedience becoming stronger.
John the Baptist is another clear example. He was chosen before birth, filled with purpose, and prepared by God, yet Scripture still says, “So the child grew and became strong in spirit” (Luke 1:80). Strength of spirit is not instant. It develops as a person listens to God and walks faithfully.

I see that you prefer to link spiritual maturity with not sinning as much as before.

Jesus Himself taught that life in God must continue and grow. He said, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me” (John 15:4). He then added, “He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit” (John 15:5). Fruit comes over time, not all at once. Jesus also said, “Every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit” (John 15:2). Pruning would not be needed if growth were finished in a single moment.

Fruit grows all the time. If we sow to the Spirit, we will reap fruits from the Spirit. If we sow to the flesh, we will reap fruits from the flesh (Ga 5). It would be correct to say that if you want to reap fruits from the Spirit, then it is required to sow to the Spirit. But I do not sense that the "requirement" you are speaking of is in regard to sowing to the Spirit. I think you are pointing to the fruit as being required for salvation.

The Old Testament speaks the same way. “The path of the just is like the shining sun, that shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18). Light increasing shows progress, not a fixed state. God also promised, “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33). Writing takes time. It shows God working within a person as they walk with Him. All these verses speak with one voice. New life from God is real and powerful, but it is not motionless. God gives life, and that life grows. Wisdom increases, obedience deepens, and favor with God becomes stronger as a person walks faithfully with Him, just as Jesus taught and lived.

There are a few things in this post that bother me. The main ones are those that imply Jesus was less than perfect. Others are those that imply our spiritual growth improves God's approval or support for us.

Stepping back from this a bit, it appears that you are aware that there is such a thing as new life in Christ (because you mention it). But it seems that you are not able to see that in Christ we already have everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3). It seems as though you are making our efforts the key ingredient to gaining or maintaining eternal life. At least, that is how I read your comments above.

 

[Nedsk]

Process of church discipline:

Matthew 18:15-17 KJV - 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Record of God taking lives to stop their sin is with the likes of Annaias and co holding back giving to the church and with other people who's sin was affecting others.

The burning of the spirit is the conviction on the believers spirit to discontinue sin.

Which is a free choice of the will that's why works complete faith. As such faith without works is dead. Which means faith alone is not sufficient and a dead faith is none salvific

 

[Nedsk]

If a person rests all his hope on Christ, then he will cease from his works that he previously pursued in order to gain salvation. If James saw a person working hard for his salvation, he might tell them that their actions prove their profession of faith in Christ is dead.

No one claims works gains anyone salvation. Can you cite where I made such a claim? As to works people will be judged by their works or lack there of regardless of faith.

 

[Nedsk]

No it doesn't. Dead faith is no faith at all. Works follow living faith, so Sola Fide is still valid.

You're suggesting faith causes works? If faith alone is valid why would works follow faith? You do understand what sufficient means correct?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Repentance is not about perfection but about direction. Someone who life is directed as being a doer of sin does not have the goal of living in obedience to God's law, but when they repent they are redirecting their live towards being a doer of God's law. It doesn't mean that they will live in perfect obedience to it, but it does mean that they will repent if they fail short. Our gift of salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed as being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of God's law, which is what Titus 2:11-13 is in regard to.

So I take this to mean that the only difference between a sinner who possesses the gift of salvation and a sinner who doesn't is that the first wants to obey God's laws and repents when he fails but the second doesn't. It also appears that the former always repents after sinning. This looks like "wanting to obey", not "obedience" itself, is the halmark of this view of salvation. Is that right?

 

[Nedsk]

So I take this to mean that the only difference between a sinner who possesses the gift of salvation and a sinner who doesn't is that the first wants to obey God's laws and repents when he fails but the second doesn't. It also appears that the former always repents after sinning. This looks like "wanting to obey", not "obedience" itself, is the halmark of this view of salvation. Is that right?

Do people who possess the "gift of salvation" still sin?

 

[NightTwister]

You're suggesting faith causes works? If faith alone is valid why would works follow faith? You do understand what sufficient means correct?

Did I say faith causes works? No, I didn't. I said works follow living faith.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

No one claims works gains anyone salvation. Can you cite where I made such a claim? As to works people will be judged by their works or lack there of regardless of faith.

I'm not accusing anyone. I'm applying James' statements (which were not about faith that leads to the salvation of peoples' souls) to the kind of faith that leads to salvation. Saving faith has an element of works, as James said about "faith" in general. The work (or action) associated with saving faith is ceasing from one's works (from Hebrews). James said, "I will show you my faith by my works" (Ja 2:18). All I'm saying is that if you see someone working hard to maintain their salvation, those actions (their works) are in line with what they really believe, regardless of their stated "faith".

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Do people who possess the "gift of salvation" still sin?

I think that is what he was saying, but they always repent when they do it. At least that's how I read it. I actually agree with that sentiment. But I don't think good intentions and regret over sin is rewarded. I think it is a feature of Christ living in us and correcting us when we go astray. And I don't see Him as witholding His forgiveness when we mess up. What do you think?

 

[Mem]

Do people who possess the "gift of salvation" still sin?

I believe Romans 14:23 and James 4:17 exhibits Paul's awareness that everyone still does, as 'whatever is not from faith is sin' and 'anyone who knows the right thing to do, and yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.' And The former balances it out speaking in the context of the law of love with regard of self-condemnation and the latter speaks in the context of boasting of one's intentions.

I've yet to meet any person that didn't sin other than Jesus Himself. How many do you know?

 

[Nedsk]

I'm not accusing anyone. I'm applying James' statements (which were not about faith that leads to the salvation of peoples' souls) to the kind of faith that leads to salvation. Saving faith has an element of works, as James said about "faith" in general. The work (or action) associated with saving faith is ceasing from one's works (from Hebrews). James said, "I will show you my faith by my works" (Ja 2:18). All I'm saying is that if you see someone working hard to maintain their salvation, those actions (their works) are in line with what they really believe, regardless of their stated "faith".

But AGAIN if faith is sufficient then works are irrelevant to the discussion of salvation.

 

[Nedsk]

Did I say faith causes works? No, I didn't. I said works follow living faith.

Then if faith doesn't cause works, works have to be a free choice of the will. If they are a free choice of the will then people can have faith and choose not to do them. If they can choose not to do them then they can be judged, as scripture points out, for not doing them which would make salvation impossible. Therefore faith alone is not sufficient for salvation.

 

[Nedsk]

I believe Romans 14:23 and James 4:17 exhibits Paul's awareness that everyone still does, as 'whatever is not from faith is sin' and 'anyone who knows the right thing to do, and yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.' And The former balances it out speaking in the context of the law of love with regard of self-condemnation and the latter speaks in the context of boasting of one's intentions.

I've yet to meet any person that didn't sin other than Jesus Himself. How many do you know?

Zero therefore faith alone is not sufficient for salvation

 

[Nedsk]

I think that is what he was saying, but they always repent when they do it. At least that's how I read it. I actually agree with that sentiment. But I don't think good intentions and regret over sin is rewarded. I think it is a feature of Christ living in us and correcting us when we go astray. And I don't see Him as witholding His forgiveness when we mess up. What do you think?

Always repent? Really? Perfectly? No one is talking about God withholding forgiveness so no idea what you mentioned that. This is about choice and if we had free agency over our wills then what we do or don't do potentially has an impact on our salvation. On that point scripture is clear. Jesus is clear that just say Lord Lord is not a sureity of salvation