Free will and devine sovereignty

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homwardbound said:
since you say you are offended by my posts, never meant that way
Thank you
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Again I dont see how I'm offended, since I ask you to explain, and not rant like people do.

It looks to me like your the one who is offended, or so easily offended by understandings spoken hold here are coming across as if you don't have choice,

Actually if your saved you would be defending your freedom, on the bases it's worth defending, but for you it looks like your threatened by thinking people are taking your freedom, it's what you expect from people still growing.
 
Jordon said:
Does human freedom limit God's Freedom.


Well often we here the phrase don't limit God, but often we see Human freedom limiting God,

I like this sermon because it shows that God did indeed grant his creation and creations freedom but he placed his freedom above ours.

For instance God said you can Freely eat from every tree, but he placed a limitation on our choice and freedom, he said but that one you must not eat.

But this isn't an open invitation to discuss Adam and eve as we all know the story, all tho your freely welcome to, it's more about God Limiting our freedom, verses humans limiting Gods freedom with there own freedom, and the reason why.

More to this sermon the question is asked does God for-knowledge equal determinism, which again the sermon says no.

For instance If God knows what your going to say before you say it, does that mean what you say will come to pass on the bases God knows , or does it mean God determined what you would say in advance.

Well no it means that God knows what will come to pass, and everything you say will come to pass, and there nothing anyone person can do to change what words a person says will come to pass, which ultimately points towards our will being in God's hand and his will being greater.

Which is saying that God knowing all things means he knows all things,

But also what ever he ordains before hand also means it will come to pass.

Here's the sermon, that raises meany other Good points, I wonder if there could be an agreement with this against many disagreements 😋

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I am not discussing Adam and Eve but your reasoning isn't sound. God didn't limit their choice or freedom he asked them to surrender some portion of their will to his request. They failed in that instance. We have no power to limit Gods freedom choice power or will. That's presumptuous on a obscene level.
 
Nedsk said:
I am not discussing Adam and Eve but your reasoning isn't sound. God didn't limit their choice or freedom he asked them to surrender some portion of their will to his request. They failed in that instance. We have no power to limit Gods freedom choice power or will. That's presumptuous on a obscene level.
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Complete Ignorance of what I said, what part of the question

Does God place limitations on our freedom do you not understand ?

So the other question is does mans free will mean absolutely freedom, which is something called autonomy
 
Jordon said:
Complete Ignorance of what I said, what part of the question

Does God place limitations on our freedom do you not understand ?

So the other question is does mans free will mean absolutely freedom, which is something called autonomy
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Oh brother did you type the following?

"For instance God said you can Freely eat from every tree, but he placed a limitation on our choice and freedom, he said but that one you must not eat."
 
Nedsk said:
Oh brother did you type the following?

"For instance God said you can Freely eat from every tree, but he placed a limitation on our choice and freedom, he said but that one you must not eat."
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How you dont see that as a limitation I do not know.

That's something you'll have to work out
 
Jordon said:
How you dont see that as a limitation I do not know.

That's something you'll have to work out
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If they were limited from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good evil then why were they expelled from the garden for eating it's fruit?
 
Nedsk said:
If they were limited from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good evil then why were they expelled from the garden for eating it's fruit?
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what do you mean if they where limited,

From that tree you must not eat is clear instruction and limitations on what you can freely must not do.

He said you can freely eat from any other tree but you can't freely eat from that one,

Again how do you not see that has God putting limitations on your freedom and his freedom being higher.

Which means you are free God is free, but he's more free, and places limitations on your freedom.
 
Jordon said:
what do you mean if they where limited,

From that tree you must not eat is clear instruction and limitations on what you can freely must not do.

He said you can freely eat from any other tree but you can't freely eat from that one,

Again how do you not see that has God putting limitations on your freedom and his freedom being higher.

Which means you are free God is free, but he's more free, and places limitations on your freedom.
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No it's an instruction not a limitation. It would be helpful for you to know the definition of the words you use.

God is not putting limitations on our freedom he is asking us to put limitations on our freedom so we can love him rather than our own desires. What's wrong with you.

Placing limits on people is not love. Telling my wife she can't go out with her friends is not love. Her freely deciding to be with me instead of her friends is.
 
Jordon said:
I'm still waiting hence why I haven't fully engaged in your reply.

Ive been waiting 2 days ? Have you got round to it.

Anyhow there's always next week after all those who wait, well the best things will come.
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Okay, I listened to a few more minutes, in which Sproul mentioned an irresistible force versus an immovable object,
which is what I said in my post about it being impossible to imagine God's sovereignty/omnipotence meaning that
God can be absurd or perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move.

Then Sproul said that God gave humanity MFW but not power to be autonomous, and he cited the story of A&E as
illustrating this truth. That is similar to the solution I shared:

"God's omniscience does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation
or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish between the banks of the river of salvation (signified by the tree of evil and the tree of life).

This means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (per 1Tim. 2:3-4) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will."
 
Nedsk said:
No it's an instruction not a limitation. It would be helpful for you to know the definition of the words you use.

God is not putting limitations on our freedom he is asking us to put limitations on our freedom so we can love him rather than our own desires. What's wrong with you.

Placing limits on people is not love. Telling my wife she can't go out with her friends is not love. Her freely deciding to be with me instead of her friends is.
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yep it is always something else with you, it never is what the scripture clearly suggests with you either, it's always your choice is more important with you.

How it is that you don't see the instruction to not freely do something means what it implies ?

Which is God is ruling above your freedom with his freedom to not do that that something freely. which is what is meant by God limiting you, and holding his freedom higher than your freedom

So if a person can not accept that, it's called autonomy. And they fall from grace. Which is what a&e did, they wanted more freedom than they had been given, was the point of the sermon, which is the view point of the original sin, that corrupted mans nature, which was to hold there own freedom that had been given above God's. So wanting more freedom than had been given corrupted there nature and all mankind

And it's also where the doctrine of depravity stems from, the original sin.
 
GWH said:
Okay, I listened to a few more minutes, in which Sproul mentioned an irresistible force versus an immovable object,
which is what I said in my post about it being impossible to imagine God's sovereignty/omnipotence meaning that
God can be absurd or perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move.

Then Sproul said that God gave humanity MFW but not power to be autonomous, and he cited the story of A&E as
illustrating this truth. That is similar to the solution I shared:

"God's omniscience does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation
or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish between the banks of the river of salvation (signified by the tree of evil and the tree of life).

This means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (per 1Tim. 2:3-4) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will."
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so now you agree that permissive will is something God uses in a person. ? Didn't seem to be that way in a thread i started about permissive will ? What changed

Again tho why should a moral corrupted will be allowed to contradict God, if God's pernissive will is actively making them aware internally, which scripture say it does, because his moral will is written on all unsaved hearts ?
 
GWH said:
Okay, I listened to a few more minutes, in
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ok thanks, well listen I would like you to comment on whether you believe depravity is a result of the original sin and not the doctrine of tulip.
 
Jordon said:
ok thanks, well listen I would like you to comment on whether you believe depravity is a result of the original sin and not the doctrine of tulip.
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I have always maintained that God permits MFW, so nothing has changed from my end regarding that.

Regarding "why should a moral corrupted will be allowed to contradict God?": The question should be "why should humans have MFW?"
The answer is because that is what enables them to fellowship with God rather than be like animals or robots.

Regarding my belief regarding original sin, I believe each person is responsible for their own sins and judged by God accordingly.
 
GWH said:
I have always maintained that God permits MFW, so nothing has changed from my end regarding that.

Regarding "why should a moral corrupted will be allowed to contradict God?": The question should be "why should humans have MFW?"
The answer is because that is what enables them to fellowship with God rather than be like animals or robots.

Regarding my belief regarding original sin, I believe each person is responsible for their own sins and judged by God accordingly.
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Well at least now where getting somewhere and your stating your beliefs plain and simple.

Do you believe all of mankind nature was corrupted because of the first sin.
 
Rather than wait for an answer than come back with another answer here it is


Romans 5:12

New International Version



Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

This scripture clearly teaches that because of Adam's sin all will sin by nature, it doesn't say all will not sin, because it means all have a nature that will sin, which means that the nature of all mankind has been corrupted,

So how does the moral capacity of doing spiritual good have a role in the fallen nature of man, when all will sin.

There is an explanation what is it
 
Jordon said:
Well at least now where getting somewhere and your stating your beliefs plain and simple.

Do you believe all of mankind nature was corrupted because of the first sin.
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I believe the first sin was followed by every other human being sinning,
and that the sins of parents influences the children to be sinful,
and I believe that it is possible for parental sin to result in genetic taint that is transmitted via DNA,
but I believe an inherited susceptibility such as alcoholism is resistible because MFW is not completely corrupted.
If MFW were completely absent, then the sinner could not justly be held accountable, although this could be deemed
as increasing the justification for execution, because there would be no hope for rehabilitation.
 
GWH said:
I believe the first sin was followed by every other human being sinning,
and that the sins of parents influences the children to be sinful,
and I believe that it is possible for parental sin to result in genetic taint that is transmitted via DNA,
but I believe an inherited susceptibility such as alcoholism is resistible because MFW is not completely corrupted.
If MFW were completely absent, then the sinner could not justly be held accountable, although this could be deemed
as increasing the justification for execution, because there would be no hope for rehabilitation.
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What the scripture clearly teaches is all will sin because of a nature that is corrupted, that's the first thing, which means it's inevitable that all will sin regardless of whether there parents have been saved or not.

Then the scriptures teach what gives the unsaved a moral free will and capacity to not sin.

Which is the fact that God has wrote on the heart of all the unsaved his moral law.

This is the explanation, that without that moral law willing them not to sin they would sin far more. The scripture of God writing his moral law on all hearts is also the key to understanding that God is drawing the person to him also. Romans 2:14-15

This scripture also is what's known as God's permissive will, where he tells the heart of the unsaved what he allows and doesn't allow, by his moral free will he has wrote in there hearts. By his moral law.

So this answers your question of why should humans have moral free will. And why should there moral free will be permissive to God.

In the heart of the unsaved will be what's not permissive to by his pernissive will placed in there heart, because his moral law he writes on there heart, is his freedom and will to warn them something is prohibited before they sin, which means just before a person sins there will be a little message in there heart, saying that's prohibited.
 
Jordon said:
yep it is always something else with you, it never is what the scripture clearly suggests with you either, it's always your choice is more important with you.

How it is that you don't see the instruction to not freely do something means what it implies ?

Which is God is ruling above your freedom with his freedom to not do that that something freely. which is what is meant by God limiting you, and holding his freedom higher than your freedom

So if a person can not accept that, it's called autonomy. And they fall from grace. Which is what a&e did, they wanted more freedom than they had been given, was the point of the sermon, which is the view point of the original sin, that corrupted mans nature, which was to hold there own freedom that had been given above God's. So wanting more freedom than had been given corrupted there nature and all mankind

And it's also where the doctrine of depravity stems from, the original sin.
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It's funny how simply your mind works. God did not limit anything. He said you must not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What he DIDN'T say was you are unable to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It REALLY would help if you knew what the words mean and why some words are there and some aren't. Gods instruction didn't PREVENT eating the fruit we have free will. Oh boy more words for you to look up
 
Nedsk said:
It's funny how simply your mind works. God did not limit anything. He said you must not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What he DIDN'T say was you are unable to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It REALLY would help if you knew what the words mean and why some words are there and some aren't. Gods instruction didn't PREVENT eating the fruit we have free will. Oh boy more words for you to look up
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Simplicity in a biblical context is about trusting in God completely, being humble, and purity of heart,

God is light and in him is no darkness at all, but in mankind there is darkness, because after man was created in God's image he freely rejected God's image,

Which never reflected Gods simplicity for us to not freely do what we want. Because his life in mankind was spiritualy aware, what not to do freely


But it should of done, because Gods foolishness is more clever than a wise man

1 Corinthians 1:25 😋
 
Jordon said:
Simplicity in a biblical context is about trusting in God completely, being humble, and purity of heart,

God is light and in him is no darkness at all, but in mankind there is darkness, because after man was created in God's image he freely rejected God's image,

Which never reflected Gods simplicity for us to not freely do what we want. Because his life in mankind was spiritualy aware, what not to do freely


But it should of done, because Gods foolishness is more clever than a wise man

1 Corinthians 1:25 😋
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Our will is God's gift. If we are not free then we cannot love him
 
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