Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?

[jimmydiggs]

Dear huzzahjimmydiggs:

Do you say the Spirit proceeds from both the Father AND THE SON? Jesus Christ says the Spirit proceeds from THE FATHER (ALONE) (Cf. John 15:26). THE EOC teaches the same thing that John 15:26 teaches. It was over this one verse, and over the other one verse, Matthew 16:18, that Roman catholicism apostasized (fell away from the Christian faith) over papal jurisdiction (earthly power) and the procession of the Spirit.
What do you say if you're right, if you're a Protestant. You believe in "faith alone", "because Martin Luther says so." When asked why he was adding the word "alone" to St. Paul in Romans 3:28, Martin Luther said, "It is so. And I will have it so. And my will is reason enough. It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so." If you as a Protestant say "faith alone" for salvation, you are depending on the authority of Martin Luther, for Luther was the first one to insist on "faith alone" in the sixteenth century. Perhaps you don't believe in justification "by faith alone". If so, good. I don't want to say whether or not you agree with Luther. But if you're a Protestant, you do, as all Protestants are united in teaching "faith alone".
God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear filioquescott:

It seems like the only thing you talk about, is the Filioque. Is that how you are at home too?


In Cape Girardeau MO Dustin T. Schlatter

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear filioquescott:

It seems like the only thing you talk about, is the Filioque. Is that how you are at home too?


In Cape Girardeau MO Dustin T. Schlatter

The Presbyterians say: Our church is the true Reformed Church of Jesus Christ. We believe the Westminster Confession of Faith."

So far so good. They believe the Westminster Confession of Faith, On God, and the Holy Trinity. Which contradicts John 15:26?
Which are you going to believe: Jesus Christ in His plain and impossible to misunderstand words in John 15:26? Or the Calvinists of the Westminster Confession, following Augustine of Hippo?

Those who have been given the Holy Spirit to learn all the truth from Jesus Christ (John 16:13) do not misunderstand John 15:26. The WCF falsifies John 15:26?
Why do I mention it so much? Because the truth matters.
Calvinism is right that God is sovereign, but wrong that sovereignty of God means double predestination and causality of all things (which includes causality of evil).
Calvinism is wrong about the Filioque. So its who teaching on the Trinity is semi-Sabellian.
So it is a false teaching.
Of course, if it doesn't matter to you, I'm sorry to hear you don't understand why the EOC mentions the Filioque so much. It's the theological cause that Rome and most of the Protestants fell into error and into secular humanism (rationalism).

 

[BananaPie]

According to Scripture, the Church is the ultimate authority, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). It doesn't say the Scripture is the pillar and ground of the truth; the Church that Christ founded (Matt. 16:18) is given the Holy Spirit by Christ (John 16:13) so the Church has the faith of the saints (Eph. 4; Jude 3).

The original topic question is: "Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?"

One simple response is: No, it is not plain to "all" because if it were:

a) All Christians would have stayed united all these 2 millennia in full understanding of how to behave, what to think and what all godly doctrine under the sun means to their lives.

b) There would be no market value in the exaggerated publication of editions, revisions, and revisions of the revision of new edition of bible versions.

c) There would be zero bashing of believers and animocity of believes as well expressed in these forums, let alone in the entire cyberspace.

d) Certain preachers would have the godly understanding that none of them need to own million-dollar mansions and own their private AIRPORT and own private jet planes in order to preach the Gospel in the community where they live tax-exempt!!

e) ...but you already knew all this.

 

[Scotth1960]

"Question II. Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?
"If the Divine Scriptures were plain to all Christians that read them, the Lord would not have commanded such as desired to obtain salvation to search the same: and Paul would have said without reason that God had placed the gift of teaching in the Church; and Peter would not have said of the Epistles of Paul that they contained some things hard to be understood. It is evident, therefore, that the Scriptures are very profound, and their sense lofty; and that they need learned and divine men to search out their true meaning, and a sense that is right, and agreeable to all Scripture, and to its author the Holy Spirit.
"So that as to those that are regenerated [in Baptism], although they must know the faith concerning the Trinity, the incarnation of the Son of God, His Passion, resurrection, and ascension into the the heavens, what concerneth regeneration and judgment -- for which many have not hesitated to die -- it is not necessary, but rather impossible, that all should know what the Holy Spirit manifesteth to those alone who are exercised in wisdom and holiness. ....." (page 507: The Confession of Dositheus. 1672. CREEDS OF THE CHURCHES: A Reader in Christian Doctrine from the Bible to the Present. Third edition. John H. Leith, editor. Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 1982.).

THE CONFESSION OF DOSITHEUS. Decree II. "We believe the Divine and Sacred Scriptures to be God-taught; and therefore, we ought to believe the same without doubting; yet not otherwise than as the Catholic Church hath interpreted and delivered the same. For every foul heresy receiveth, indeed, the Divine Scriptures, but perversely interpreteth the same, using metaphores, and homonymies [homonyms], and sophistries of man's wisdom, confounding what ought to be distinguished, and trifling with what ought not to be trifled with. For if (we were to receive the same) otherwise, each man holding every day a different sense concerning the same, the Catholic Church would not (as she doth) by the grace of Christ continue to be the Church until this day, holding the same doctrine of faith, and always identically and steadfastly believing, but would be rent into innumerable parties, and subject to heresies; neither would the Church be the pillar and ground of the truth, without spot or wrinkle; but would be the Church of the malignant; as it is manifest that of the heretics undoubtedly is, and especially that of Calvin, who are not ashamed to learn from the Church, and then to wickedly repudiate her. ...." (pages 486-487, John H. Leith, editor.).
A message from Scott R. Harrington: The heretics trifle with John 15:26, and say it is not important to them whether or not the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, or from both the Father and the Son. Go figure! The words of our Lord Jesus Christ do not matter to them, and they dismiss without comment John 15:26; they fail to believe what Christ said. They follow the Third local council of Toledo, Spain, of 589 AD, the dogma of Charlemagne, king of the heretics; and the false opinion of Augustine of Hippo, who did not actually intend his mere speculation on this to be thought of as an infallible dogma that must be believed for salvation (as the heretic Thomas Aquinas would falsely have it!).
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[jimmydiggs]

ITT: Blaming the bible for the problems of humans.

 

[Consumed]

Bible teaches exhorts encourages and states that the holy spirit will lead us into all truths. So its pretty simple, accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour, keep His commands to love, and at anytime what you hear said about scripture refer to scripture thru prayer for Gods peace to gaurd our heart and mind.

Paul and Peter really taught strongly on law and grace and walking in His light and righteousness, setting an example to follow and expecting with assurance that God is faithful to see us thru.

Now where does it state anything about venerating anyone but God the Father, Jesus His Son and the Holy Spirit to be held in reverance. So when "church" comes along and says anything outside of the bible and adds to it refer to scripture as "it is written" not added

 

[zone]

Dear Zone; God bless you. Lord have mercy on all of us. Lutherans follow the traditions of a man, just one man, Luther, and his followers. The OC follows the traditions of God preached by many, many men, many many saints and OC fathers, starting with the 12 apostles and the 70 disciples. If we want to know which tradition is true, we should be able to trace it back to the first century AD.

please list all traditions the rest of us are missing that OC has preserved.

not a list of books.
list the traditions themselves that you say are critical to salvation or pleasing God.

 

[zone]

The original topic question is: "Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?"

One simple response is: No, it is not plain to "all" because if it were:

a) All Christians would have stayed united all these 2 millennia in full understanding of how to behave, what to think and what all godly doctrine under the sun means to their lives.

b) There would be no market value in the exaggerated publication of editions, revisions, and revisions of the revision of new edition of bible versions.

c) There would be zero bashing of believers and animocity of believes as well expressed in these forums, let alone in the entire cyberspace.

d) Certain preachers would have the godly understanding that none of them need to own million-dollar mansions and own their private AIRPORT and own private jet planes in order to preach the Gospel in the community where they live tax-exempt!!

e) ...but you already knew all this.

all of the above are WHY the scriptures are so hard for so many.
not the other way around.

 

[Scotth1960]

[quote=zone;567406]please list all traditions the rest of us are missing that OC has preserved.

not a list of books.
list the traditions themselves that you say are critical to salvation or pleasing God. [/quote]
Dear Zone: The Gospel of God in very few words:
"The Confession of the Orthodox Faith: Of the First Council (325 AD)
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one LORD Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, Begotten, not made, consubstantial (of one substance (essence)) with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the scriptures; And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there is no end. "Of the Second Council. (381 AD). And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father [John 15:26], Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission [forgiveness/expiation] of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen."
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[zone]

[quote=zone;567406]please list all traditions the rest of us are missing that OC has preserved.

not a list of books.
list the traditions themselves that you say are critical to salvation or pleasing God.

Dear Zone: The Gospel of God in very few words:
"The Confession of the Orthodox Faith: Of the First Council (325 AD)
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one LORD Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, Begotten, not made, consubstantial (of one substance (essence)) with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the scriptures; And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there is no end. "Of the Second Council. (381 AD). And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father [John 15:26], Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission [forgiveness/expiation] of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen."
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington [/quote]

a creed?
that's the reason for the huge fuss over traditions we "mini-popes' don't have?

i like the creeds too. they are NOT authoritative neither infallible, they are summaries of the orthdox beliefs (small o)

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Zone: The Gospel of God in very few words:
"The Confession of the Orthodox Faith: Of the First Council (325 AD)
"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one LORD Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, Begotten, not made, consubstantial (of one substance (essence)) with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the scriptures; And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there is no end. "Of the Second Council. (381 AD). And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father [John 15:26], Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission [forgiveness/expiation] of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen."
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

a creed?
that's the reason for the huge fuss over traditions we "mini-popes' don't have?

i like the creeds too. they are NOT authoritative neither infallible, they are summaries of the orthdox beliefs (small o)[/quote]
Dear zone, How do you know that the Nicene Creed is neither authoritative nor infallible?
Can you prove that?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything, upon insufficient evidence.
People who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.
What proof is there, Zone, that the Creed of the Church that Christ founded is neither authoritative nor infallible? Do you have infallible, authoritative proof, that it is not so? Prove even one error in this Creed, okay?
God bless you.

 

[Scotth1960]

ITT: Blaming the bible for the problems of humans.

Premise: Sola Scriptura.
Practice: Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy.
Reality: Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy not mentioned in the Scriptures.
Conclusion: You don't actually believe in sola scriptura. You believe in the authority of the tradition by Jonathan Edwards. You add his teachings to "the Bible alone".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Premise: Sola Scriptura.
Practice: Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy.
Reality: Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy not mentioned in the Scriptures.
Conclusion: You don't actually believe in sola scriptura. You believe in the authority of the tradition by Jonathan Edwards. You add his teachings to "the Bible alone".

No one will be held accountbale for listening to what Jonathon edwards or any othe rHUMAN teaches. Only what they believe. It is foolish to base ones eternity on any man, no matter what man it is. And not trust in Christ to teach youi truth through the HS

 

[AnandaHya]

how does someone being your homeboy automatically make you take his words to have the same value as scripture?

that is just ridiculous and illogical. I have a lot of friends that I do not agree theologically with.

 

[AnandaHya]

To say all a Christian needs is the Holy Spirit and himself, with a big emphasis on himself, is to have oneself, not necessarily the Holy Spirit, as one's teacher. lie

In the end, it's personal opinion that trumps the voice of the Holy Spirit. In the end, one is one's own mediator between God and oneself. One does not need any church, and one would logically then reject any sacraments like baptism and communion. lie because it is based upon the premise which is a lie

This is what Protestantism in the extreme leads to: Quakerism, or Unitarianism. The Trinity is denied.
If one is one's own priest, one can anoint oneself as a Christian, and save oneself. another lie the HOly Spirit and GOD saves not some tradition or church or anyone but GOD.

Why does one even need Jesus Christ, then? If one is an infallible guide to receiving the Holy Spirit all on one's own, why does one even need the Bible? Or why not interpret the Bible "for oneself", and tell oneself what the Bible means, according to whatever you as an individual want the Bible to mean. This is an inevitable result of Protestantism's heresy of private interpretation and of sola Scriptura.

you are being illogical and making assumptions left and right that are just plan false and not true. It is not even worth the time to address them all so I will just make a few key statements to counter the lies in the above post.

the emphasis is on the HOLY SPIRIT and the HOLY SPIRIT leads people to attend church, take communion and be baptised and become a part of the corporal Local Body of Christ and work as a member to shine a light in their community.

the focus should never be on oneself but on the HOLY SPIRIT and how to show God's love and glory to the world by obeying the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT who does not tell you to fulfill your own lusts but to help those around you.

anyways I won't bother to address your other post. it will probably just make you mad.

why do you worship your church Scott, instead of Jesus and His truth?













see I can make broad encompassing statements just like you.

 

[Scotth1960]

No one will be held accountbale for listening to what Jonathon edwards or any othe rHUMAN teaches. Only what they believe. It is foolish to base ones eternity on any man, no matter what man it is. And not trust in Christ to teach youi truth through the HS

If you believe that, why did you say "Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy"? Your beliefs are not compatible with each other. Illogical!

 

[Scotth1960]

you are being illogical and making assumptions left and right that are just plan false and not true. It is not even worth the time to address them all so I will just make a few key statements to counter the lies in the above post.

the emphasis is on the HOLY SPIRIT and the HOLY SPIRIT leads people to attend church, take communion and be baptised and become a part of the corporal Local Body of Christ and work as a member to shine a light in their community.

Scotth1960:
True. What church? Which church?
How do we know and recognize the church that Christ founded, here among us here in America, (and other nations) today?


the focus should never be on oneself but on the HOLY SPIRIT and how to show God's love and glory to the world by obeying the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT who does not tell you to fulfill your own lusts but to help those around you.

anyways I won't bother to address your other post. it will probably just make you mad.

Dear AnandaHya:
The logical result of sola scriptura is that any interpretation whatsoever of the Bible is possible. If there is no infallible church tradition by which to rightly interpret the Bible. This is what actually happens in Protestantism, as proven by my quote from Martin Luther below. It's "me and my Bible", me and my own private interpretation of the Scriptures. That is what sola scriptura ends up producing: 38,000 separate, competing, protestant denominations of men. Traditions of men. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington




why do you worship your church Scott, instead of Jesus and His truth?

Dear AnandaHya. False! I don't worship anyone but Jesus and His truth. Jesus and His truth is not Protestantism.
Protestantism says (this is what Martin Luther says, and Luther is the founder of the Protestant religion): "It is so. And I will have it so. And my will is reason enough. It is so because I, Martin Luther, say it is so." (Asked why he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28, to make it read "faith alone", when Romans 3:28 only says "faith". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


see I can make broad encompassing statements just like you.

 

[mpaper345]

The scriptures are plain to all Christians,for to be a Christian you have to be led of the Holy Spirit and act like Christ,which Jesus said the Spirit will guide you in to all truth,and show you things to come.

But the scriptures are not plain to those who claim Christ but are a hypocrite,hence the reason that all people who claim Christ will know the truth,and their will be disputes,for not all allow the Spirit to lead them.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him(1 John 2:27).

The Bible says that we need no man to teach us the word,but the Spirit will teach us.
What the preacher knows,the common person can know the same if they study it on their own like the preacher,for the Spirit will teach all saints the same regarding the word of God,and we need not that any man teach us.

But the preacher is good for they can preach of things that a person has not come across yet,or tell things not known to persons not saved,but the common pew sitter can know just as much if they study like the preacher,for the Spirit will reveal the same to all,and they can learn after saved without the preacher if they study like the preacher.

We do not need a preacher to understand God's word,for we can understand the same as a preacher if we study the word of God.

 

[Scotth1960]

The scriptures are plain to all Christians,for to be a Christian you have to be led of the Holy Spirit and act like Christ,which Jesus said the Spirit will guide you in to all truth,and show you things to come.

But the scriptures are not plain to those who claim Christ but are a hypocrite,hence the reason that all people who claim Christ will know the truth,and their will be disputes,for not all allow the Spirit to lead them.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him(1 John 2:27).

The Bible says that we need no man to teach us the word,but the Spirit will teach us.
Dear mpaper:
If that is necessarily so, then what about Acts 8:30-31? Didn't the Ethiopian need St. Philip to teach him? Are we any better than the Ethiopian? If he needed a human teacher, we, too, will all need human teachers. Who will correct you if you make an error? Is it, is learning the Gospel truth, all self-correcting? If the Ethiopian needed a man to teach him, how can it be that some of us think they only need God? Of course we need God. But we also need the Church, or else Matthew 28:19 can't be fulfilled. What if God teaches through the Church (1 Tim. 3:15), not outside of it? What if the Church, not private Bible study, leads to the meaning of the Bible? There is nothing wrong with private Bible study. There is something wrong with private interpretation of the Scriptures. The Bible says "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation".
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


What the preacher knows,the common person can know the same if they study it on their own like the preacher,for the Spirit will teach all saints the same regarding the word of God,and we need not that any man teach us.

But the preacher is good for they can preach of things that a person has not come across yet,or tell things not known to persons not saved,but the common pew sitter can know just as much if they study like the preacher,for the Spirit will reveal the same to all,and they can learn after saved without the preacher if they study like the preacher.

We do not need a preacher to understand God's word,for we can understand the same as a preacher if we study the word of God.

 

[Grandpa]

Dear AnandaHya. False! I don't worship anyone but Jesus and His truth. Jesus and His truth is not Protestantism.
Protestantism says (this is what Martin Luther says, and Luther is the founder of the Protestant religion): "It is so. And I will have it so. And my will is reason enough. It is so because I, Martin Luther, say it is so." (Asked why he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28, to make it read "faith alone", when Romans 3:28 only says "faith". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


.

That's not true Scott. You worship Jesus, His Truth, and your churchs traditions. The traditions of men. Your church says "it is so because we say it is so". You presume that your church is blessed of the Lord in a way that no other people can be blessed. But doesn't the bible say that the Lord is not a respecter of persons??

In the Lord we have Liberty, we have freedom. We don't need to come under the yoke of religion to be blessed by Jesus. We also have the freedom in Jesus to put on the yoke of religion too... I don't understand why you would, but different strokes for different folks.

I haven't ever met or heard of anyone who had all the answers. The only one I know who has all the answers is the Lord. I trust Him. I ask Him to guide me in the Knowledge and Wisdom of the scriptures as all christians are able to do.