Faith or Law?

[Knowledged]

You say you know a lot: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
Prove it! The Laws was given to one people:
Psalms 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psalms 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

Had to look up the word synapses.
Had to smile.
My daughter and I have always said that persons that could learn languages
have a different brain compositon than others.
Went to a Mika concert last night in Bologna.
He speaks many languages...he learned Italian in 6 months to be on a show here.
A normal person doesn't learn much in 6 months - no matte what those ads state.

Are you saying that makes you wise because you speak Greek, so is everyone in Greece Wise?
No one knows the pure language!

Zephaniah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

 

[Knowledged]

You failed to make the distinction, between faithful teachers and false teachers. You can't just lump them together and claim they're all false teachers.

Faithful teachers will be seen! Not key board Warriors!
Isaiah 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

Notice I didn’t use my own words I gave you as it is written!
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Learn this you guys are hilarious!

 

[Toknow]

You say you know a lot: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
Prove it! The Laws was given to one people:
Psalms 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psalms 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

Are you saying that makes you wise because you speak Greek, so is everyone in Greece Wise?
No one knows the pure language!

Zephaniah 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

I don't speak Greek.

 

[Qt]

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.
Galatians 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

SO you think I was praising myself?

 

[Qt]

You say you know a lot: 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good
Prove it! The Laws was given to one people:
Psalms 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psalms 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

I see, that was a jab at me. I will say this once and not respond again about this. These are words on a screen. You took a comment from one conversation and labeled me as if that is who I am and then post this above. That isn't wise, it is Contentious...

Anyway as for your post, God has said, there is neither Jew or Gentile. That His Law is to be in our hearts and minds, His Word in our hearts and mouths. He has given us His Spirit to cause us to walk in His ways. So work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

 

[studier]

You failed to make the distinction, between faithful teachers and false teachers. You can't just lump them together and claim they're all false teachers.

All I said was go to 1,000 teachers and get as many different teachings. That doesn't say all are false, now, does it?

 

[Toknow]

I see, that was a jab at me. I will say this once and not respond again about this. These are words on a screen. You took a comment from one conversation and labeled me as if that is who I am and then post this above. That isn't wise, it is Contentious...

Anyway as for your post, God has said, there is neither Jew or Gentile. That His Law is to be in our hearts and minds, His Word in our hearts and mouths. He has given us His Spirit to cause us to walk in His ways. So work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

I do believe he was referring to me Qt.
You know me:
Mrs Know It All
I speak Greek
I speak Hebrew
I speak ALL languages.
I am the wise one.
The all-knowing.

Oh my.
I can't stop laughing.
He didn't mean you.

 

[Rob7]

YLT and SLT are better.

Thank you for mentioning Smith's Literal Translation, I had never referenced it before, and I'm adding it to my list of study Bibles.
Yes ! YLT & (Webster's as well) = ( Textus Receptus based Bibles ) are closer to The KJV translation of the Word, God's standard Bible IMHO. I understand The KJV to be the "authorized" version, ... Authorized by God ! ( Jesus said that He would never leave us, nor forsake us, even to the end.) and this means physically, dwelling with us by His Word, the KJV as well as Spiritually by His Holy Spirit. .. being WITH US (IN us) ALWAYS.. Matt 28:19,20, Gal 2:20, ETC.

Y'all will find this teaching interesting;

Prof. Walter Veith - - Changing the Word_The Battle of the Bibles -Total Onslaught​

Satan has done an excellent job of corrupting many (most) of these modern translations, to serve his agenda of lies & deception. To misdirect us AWAY from the Righteousness of Christ & His sanctification, therefore towards perdition.

The NIV (ESV, NASB, CSB, ETC) is my "go to" example of a modern bible that supports the religion of disobedience, doctrinal corruption, misdirection and confusion, ... mixing these ("poisons") into the Word of God, Jesus, the Book of Truth. the Way to Life, so to deceive even the "very elect" Matthew 24: 24 ( The RCC has referred to the KJV as "This poisonous Asp" and fundamentalist Christians as "terrorists"in this world of "wokeness", disobedience and ecumenical union with the Papacy being The Beast of Revelation 13

FOR EXAMPLE; When picking up an unfamiliar translation, the first place I check, is Revelation 14:12 ( Gal 2:16, Gal 3:22, etc ) ... and if it reads, "the faith in Christ" when the KJV reads "Faith OF Jesus" then it's a good indication that it's been corrupted by Satan& his agents, (the RCC and her false prophets ) There is a humungus difference between faith IN & faith OF Jesus. We are NOT saved by any power of our own ( Works ) But by our faith, in the Faith OF Jesus ( = obedience to The Father )

We are only saved by our faith, in the Faith of Jesus. His Faith in doing the Fathers Will, to where He became the obedient Lamb of God, who sacrificed Himself for us, so that we might be justified to the Father, AGAIN ( as in Eden before the Fall ) To justify us ALL who will believe and follow Jesus, Who FAITHFULLY directs our lives to obedience to the Father as Jesus was Righteous. ("Right doing", fulfilling the Law ) Matthew 5 :17-20
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, ("Righteous") even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~ Blessed Sabbath Folk ! ~~~ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​

 

[Dino246]

Thank you for mentioning Smith's Literal Translation, I had never referenced it before, and I'm adding it to my list of study Bibles.
Yes ! YLT & (Webster's as well) = ( Textus Receptus based Bibles ) are closer to The KJV translation of the Word, God's standard Bible IMHO. I understand The KJV to be the "authorized" version, ... Authorized by God ! ( Jesus said that He would never leave us, nor forsake us, even to the end.) and this means physically, dwelling with us by His Word, the KJV as well as Spiritually by His Holy Spirit. .. being WITH US (IN us) ALWAYS.. Matt 28:19,20, Gal 2:20, ETC.

Y'all will find this teaching interesting;

Prof. Walter Veith - - Changing the Word_The Battle of the Bibles -Total Onslaught​

Satan has done an excellent job of corrupting many (most) of these modern translations, to serve his agenda of lies & deception. To misdirect us AWAY from the Righteousness of Christ & His sanctification, therefore towards perdition.

The NIV (ESV, NASB, CSB, ETC) is my "go to" example of a modern bible that supports the religion of disobedience, doctrinal corruption, misdirection and confusion, ... mixing these ("poisons") into the Word of God, Jesus, the Book of Truth. the Way to Life, so to deceive even the "very elect" Matthew 24: 24 ( The RCC has referred to the KJV as "This poisonous Asp" and fundamentalist Christians as "terrorists"in this world of "wokeness", disobedience and ecumenical union with the Papacy being The Beast of Revelation 13

FOR EXAMPLE; When picking up an unfamiliar translation, the first place I check, is Revelation 14:12 ( Gal 2:16, Gal 3:22, etc ) ... and if it reads, "the faith in Christ" when the KJV reads "Faith OF Jesus" then it's a good indication that it's been corrupted by Satan& his agents, (the RCC and her false prophets ) There is a humungus difference between faith IN & faith OF Jesus. We are NOT saved by any power of our own ( Works ) But by our faith, in the Faith OF Jesus ( = obedience to The Father )

We are only saved by our faith, in the Faith of Jesus. His Faith in doing the Fathers Will, to where He became the obedient Lamb of God, who sacrificed Himself for us, so that we might be justified to the Father, AGAIN ( as in Eden before the Fall ) To justify us ALL who will believe and follow Jesus, Who FAITHFULLY directs our lives to obedience to the Father as Jesus was Righteous. ("Right doing", fulfilling the Law ) Matthew 5 :17-20
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, ("Righteous") even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~ Blessed Sabbath Folk ! ~~~ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​

Your reasoning is flawed.

If we are saved by "our faith in" anything, it is the strength of our faith that matters, regardless of the "what" in which we put our faith. Whether it is in Jesus, or in the faith of Jesus, the only difference is one of degree of separation. The former is direct, the latter is indirect, but both are "our faith in" something. There is much scholarly debate on the issue, and both sides have their adherents. I do not consider this a salvific issue.

Faith is not obedience. Faith may be demonstrated (in part) by obedience, but the biblical definition of faith (Hebrews 11:1) does not touch any aspect of obedience. It's about certainty regarding things not (yet) seen.

English translations are, by themselves, inadequate for determining the accuracy in such finely nuanced issues. It appears that you assume the accuracy of the KJV, but you say nothing about checking it in every questionable verse to determine whether it is indeed the best translation in every case (it isn't!). Someone familiar with the NIV might with all the same disgust treat a KJV as error-ridden; the issue then is the point of reference. The KJV is not the objective standard by which all English translations are judged.

This thread is not about either issue, sound saving faith or translation. I encourage you to start a thread for each topic if you want to discuss them further.

 

[Qt]

This thread is not about either issue, sound saving faith or translation. I encourage you to start a thread for each topic if you want to discuss them further.

You should have ignored what they said then. You don't get to respond to what they said and then act as if they are not allowed to give a rebuttal.

 

[Qt]

Y'all will find this teaching interesting;

Prof. Walter Veith - - Changing the Word_The Battle of the Bibles -Total Onslaught​

Yes I like Walter and Martin. He is a respected Professor in a lot of circles outside of His denomination.

I listened to that before but have been familiar with what he says in it since being converted praise God.

 

[Qt]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~ Blessed Sabbath Folk ! ~~~ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I respond in more depth later as time permits. Have a nice Sabbath! Off to a prayer vigil.

 

[Rob7]

Your reasoning is flawed.

Faith is not obedience.

Like we've already pointed out. Your "fruits' or lack of fruits illustrate your having a religion (anti-Love spirit) of promoting /teaching disobedience and UN-righteousness, the two main characteristic of a False Prophet. ( Jeremiah 14:14, Matt 24:24, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 ETC )
(Dino - please from now on use scripture to reason your accusations, rather than your self-righteousness (your opinion)

1. False Prophets Matthew 7:15-20 " Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Why by their fruits you shall know them.

2. Faith Is the Root; Obedience Is the Fruit​

The Bible makes it clear that obedience is the natural fruit of true faith. Faith leads to transformation, and the evidence of this transformation is obedience to God’s law. A person with living faith will naturally obey God’s commands because they trust Him and His goodness.

Romans 1:5​

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name."
This verse shows that obedience is the outgrowth of faith. Faith leads to a willingness to obey.

Romans 16:26​

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.”
Here, obedience is the fruit of the obedience of faith, indicating that faith and obedience are inseparable.

---

3. Obedience to God’s Commandments: A Clear Manifestation of Faith​

The Ten Commandments are God's direct moral law, given to humanity as a guide for living in harmony with Him and each other. Faith is demonstrated in obedience to these commands.

John 14:15 (my person favorite)​

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Jesus Himself says that obedience to His commandments is a natural response to LOVE for Him, which stems from faith in HIS Faith and HIS Righteousness

1 John 5:3​

“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.”
True love for God is demonstrated in obedience to His commandments. Here, John shows that loving God naturally leads to obedience. It is not burdensome because faith makes us desire to please God.

---

4. Faith Without Obedience: A Dead Faith​

The Bible is clear that obedience is the natural outcome of true faith. Without it, faith is dead. A person cannot say they have genuine faith and disregard God’s commandments.

James 2:17​

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
James teaches that faith without obedience (works) is dead. Faith that does not result in action is not true faith.

James 2:20​

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
True faith results in action, and the action that results from faith is obedience to God's commandments.

---

5. Obedience to the Ten Commandments: A Test of Faith​

Obedience to God’s law, including the Ten Commandments, is a test of faith. True faith cannot exist without obedience to God’s moral law. Faith in God’s ability to save us through Jesus Christ empowers us to live in harmony with His commandments.

• “Christ did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He fulfilled it in His life by perfect obedience, and He calls upon His followers to be obedient to the law of God.”
  — The Desire of Ages, EGW p. 208.

Jesus lived out His faith through perfect obedience to the law, and we, as His followers, are called to do the same.

---

6. Can Someone Be Obedient Without Faith?​

According to the Bible, NO. ... True obedience requires faith because obedience to God’s law is a response to His love and grace. If someone appears to obey the commandments without faith, their obedience is not genuine, but merely external.

Romans 14:23​

“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
This verse teaches that anything done without faith is sin, including obedience. Without faith, obedience is not motivated by love for God and is therefore meaningless in His sight.

Hebrews 11:6​

“But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”
This verse confirms that faith is foundational for pleasing God. Obedience that comes from a place of true faith is the kind that pleases God.

---

7. The Conclusion: Faith and Obedience Are Inseparable​

Faith and obedience go hand-in-hand. True faith is always demonstrated by obedience to God’s commandments, particularly the Ten Commandments. Obedience is the natural outgrowth of genuine faith in God’s power to save and in His law as a guide for righteous living.

• Obedience is a response to God’s love and grace.
• Faith enables obedience to God’s law, and obedience is the proof of genuine faith.

James 2:22​

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”
Faith and obedience (works) are interwoven—true faith cannot exist without it.

Thus, one cannot be obedient without faith because obedience springs from the confidence and trust in God’s ability to lead us to live according to His will. It is faith that empowers us to obey and walk in God’s commands.

“Obedience is the fruit of faith, and the only way to express that faith is by obeying the commandments of God.”
— Steps to Christ, EGW p. 61

Faith and obedience are inseparable because obedience is the outward manifestation of genuine faith in God’s promises.

I pray this clarifies the relation between Faith and Obedience Folks. This Biblical reasoning is for the enlightenment of anyone thinking that they are being "Christian" while being disobedient to God = The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

>>>>>>>>>> ~~ Have a continued restful & Happy Sabbath in our Lord Jesus ~~ ... Amen ! <<<<<<<<<<​

 

[Journey_man]

Faithful teachers will be seen! Not key board Warriors!
Isaiah 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

Notice I didn’t use my own words I gave you as it is written!
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Learn this you guys are hilarious!

But there are false teachers in the pulpit, and on screens. The question is, how do we distinguish false teachers from those who proclaim the true gospel message.

They all preach from the same Bible, but their interpritation of Gods Word is radically different. Unless those listening, already know the truth, they are easily deceived. But how can one know the truth, unless someone reveals it to them.
The false teachers are very convincing, just as the Serpent deceived Eve. There is a way that seems right in the eyes of men, but the end there of is death.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

But there are false teachers in the pulpit, and on screens. The question is, how do we distinguish false teachers from those who proclaim the true gospel message.

They all preach from the same Bible, but their interpritation of Gods Word is radically different. Unless those listening, already know the truth, they are easily deceived. But how can one know the truth, unless someone reveals it to them.
The false teachers are very convincing, just as the Serpent deceived Eve. There is a way that seems right in the eyes of men, but the end there of is death.

The Holy Spirit will lead a person to truth, and will also help us to accept hard truths too. We just need to submit and yield to Him and not grieve Him.


🕊

 

[Dino246]

Like we've already pointed out. Your "fruits' or lack of fruits illustrate your having a religion (anti-Love spirit) of promoting /teaching disobedience and UN-righteousness, the two main characteristic of a False Prophet. ( Jeremiah 14:14, Matt 24:24, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 ETC )
(Dino - please from now on use scripture to reason your accusations, rather than your self-righteousness (your opinion)

1. False Prophets Matthew 7:15-20 " Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Why by their fruits you shall know them.

2. Faith Is the Root; Obedience Is the Fruit​

The Bible makes it clear that obedience is the natural fruit of true faith. Faith leads to transformation, and the evidence of this transformation is obedience to God’s law. A person with living faith will naturally obey God’s commands because they trust Him and His goodness.

Romans 1:5​

Romans 16:26​

---

3. Obedience to God’s Commandments: A Clear Manifestation of Faith​

The Ten Commandments are God's direct moral law, given to humanity as a guide for living in harmony with Him and each other. Faith is demonstrated in obedience to these commands.

John 14:15 (my person favorite)​

1 John 5:3​

---

4. Faith Without Obedience: A Dead Faith​

The Bible is clear that obedience is the natural outcome of true faith. Without it, faith is dead. A person cannot say they have genuine faith and disregard God’s commandments.

James 2:17​

James 2:20​

---

5. Obedience to the Ten Commandments: A Test of Faith​

Obedience to God’s law, including the Ten Commandments, is a test of faith. True faith cannot exist without obedience to God’s moral law. Faith in God’s ability to save us through Jesus Christ empowers us to live in harmony with His commandments.

• “Christ did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He fulfilled it in His life by perfect obedience, and He calls upon His followers to be obedient to the law of God.”
  — The Desire of Ages, EGW p. 208.

Jesus lived out His faith through perfect obedience to the law, and we, as His followers, are called to do the same.

---

6. Can Someone Be Obedient Without Faith?​

According to the Bible, NO. ... True obedience requires faith because obedience to God’s law is a response to His love and grace. If someone appears to obey the commandments without faith, their obedience is not genuine, but merely external.

Romans 14:23​

Hebrews 11:6​

---

7. The Conclusion: Faith and Obedience Are Inseparable​

Faith and obedience go hand-in-hand. True faith is always demonstrated by obedience to God’s commandments, particularly the Ten Commandments. Obedience is the natural outgrowth of genuine faith in God’s power to save and in His law as a guide for righteous living.

• Obedience is a response to God’s love and grace.
• Faith enables obedience to God’s law, and obedience is the proof of genuine faith.

James 2:22​

Thus, one cannot be obedient without faith because obedience springs from the confidence and trust in God’s ability to lead us to live according to His will. It is faith that empowers us to obey and walk in God’s commands.

Faith and obedience are inseparable because obedience is the outward manifestation of genuine faith in God’s promises.

I pray this clarifies the relation between Faith and Obedience Folks. This Biblical reasoning is for the enlightenment of anyone thinking that they are being "Christian" while being disobedient to God = The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

>>>>>>>>>> ~~ Have a continued restful & Happy Sabbath in our Lord Jesus ~~ ... Amen ! <<<<<<<<<<​

Nothing in your essay refutes my statement, "Faith is not obedience". You mention that obedience is related to faith, but you have not established that faith is obedience.

 

[Rob7]

Nothing in your essay refutes my statement, "Faith is not obedience". You mention that obedience is related to faith, but you have not established that faith is obedience.

I'm not going to play word games with you Dino...
I've biblically proved my assertion, of you and many others here in these forums being Biblical " False Prophets" for people to be ..
AWARE, & Forewarned.
Nud sed !

 

[Dino246]

I'm not going to play word games with you Dino...
I've biblically proved my assertion, of you and many others here in these forums being Biblical " False Prophets" for people to be ..
AWARE, & Forewarned.
Nud sed !

Your assertion is irrelevant because it does not address mine.

As for your slander, you will answer to the Lord for that.

 

[Mem]

Nothing in your essay refutes my statement, "Faith is not obedience". You mention that obedience is related to faith, but you have not established that faith is obedience.

I think of the command to believe is insomuch that exercising faith, in tandem with hope and love, is obedience in the sense that others assert as obeying rules to be the only valid compliance to obedience.

I welcome any criticism by which I might edit my assertion.

 

[Dino246]

I think of the command to believe is insomuch that exercising faith, in tandem with hope and love, is obedience in the sense that others assert as obeying rules to be the only valid compliance to obedience.

I welcome any criticism by which I might edit my assertion.

What you describe is exercising faith which in that sense is fundamentally no different from any other activity we are "commanded" to do. It does not mean that faith (in and of itself) is obedience.