Some people claim that God will reveal to us things He wishes us to know. Other people claim that only the scriptures are fit for revelations about God. Yet in Psalm 19:1-4 we read that the heavens and earth declare God's glory without words. In Romans 1:20 we read that all may be known about God is revealed in His creation. In 1 Kings 4:33 we hear that Solomon was renown for his knowledge of many topics. Are we insulting God when we claim that God will reveal what He wants us to know without our efforts to learn? God created us with rational minds and the ability to learn from other humans and by our own reasoning. Job might even be suggesting that God wishes us to use our intellects to seek out knowledge of Him. Should we not do that, even if it means looking for such knowledge outside of the humanly approved scriptures?
Are we insulting God?
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Not entirely sure if any scripture is humanly approved. I agree that God created us with rational minds and the ability to learn from other humans. God did say to not cover your lamp but rather let it shine. It is important to set a Godly example in what we do. This is by the grace of God.
I don't think we are "insulting" God when we do as you describe. I also don't think that we should conflate general revelation as described in Romans 1:20 with specific revelation as presented in the prophetic passages. Clearly, the Law was given to Israel but not to the Gentiles, though any so inclined could learn the Law from the Israelites.
God has given us His word, but we don't automatically know it; we have to read it, seek understanding, learn how to consider the various forms of context and genre, and learn general principles of interpretation.
That all said, God is also capable of revealing Himself to individuals (or groups) without the direct use of a Bible or a preacher. He did so many times in Scripture, and there are many testimonies of this across the Moslem world.
In summary, I think this is a "both-and" issue. God has chosen to reveal much through the Bible and through Jesus Himself. He has also hidden things and enabled men to seek them out (Proverbs 25:2).
God has given us His word, but we don't automatically know it; we have to read it, seek understanding, learn how to consider the various forms of context and genre, and learn general principles of interpretation.
That all said, God is also capable of revealing Himself to individuals (or groups) without the direct use of a Bible or a preacher. He did so many times in Scripture, and there are many testimonies of this across the Moslem world.
In summary, I think this is a "both-and" issue. God has chosen to reveal much through the Bible and through Jesus Himself. He has also hidden things and enabled men to seek them out (Proverbs 25:2).
I think the key is does what God is revealing to Me , line up with what he’s said ?
for instance did God reveal “he sent his only begotten son into the world that anyone who believes in him shall
Not perish but have everlasting life ?”
this type of revelation from God would be good but if God for instance reveals something opposite from what the word says because that’s actually how God has always communicated with mankind he said to Adam , he said to cain , he said to Noah , he said to Moses and said to the tribes of Israel he said to the prophets and sent them to say to the people later , he came and preached the gospel by his own word , he sent those who believed out to speak it forward to more peoples ect
there’s always been a component to God speaking things even from the beginning God said , let there be ect
Often “revelation “ needs to be checked against what’s written because there’s always false doctrine
Hello Rewriter, I think that this statement of yours (taken as written anyway) is a truism (atheists and deists being the exception, of course).
I've been a Christian for a little over 40 years now and I've never heard anyone make that particular claim before (whether in person or out here in online Christendom). The principal reason for that is due to what the Scriptures themselves teach us (about the many ways that He both has & continues to reveal Himself to us), as you already pointed out for us .. Psalm 19:1-4 (Romans 2:14-15 speaks of another kind of "general" revelation that all human beings are privy to, just FYI).
Is that what Romans 1:20 actually tells us (that ~all~ that may be known about God is revealed in His Creation)
Romans 1
20 Since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
General revelation tells us that God exists, and it also reveals (to a certain degree anyway) what He is like and what He expects of us (by giving us an innate sense of right and wrong/good and evil, for instance), but there are MANY important matters that it cannot reveal to us, such as the way of salvation, for instance, as only God's special revelation is capable of doing that for us .. e.g. Acts 4:12.
This is true, but only to a degree, because no matter how reasonable, rational & intelligent our minds may be, we cannot learn or be sure of anything about God apart from the knowledge that He has revealed to us about Himself (knowledge that has now been inscripturated for us in the Bible, OT and New).
Without it (inscripturated special revelation, that is), most of what we know about Him would be based upon little more than conjecture, and the "truth" would most often amount to nothing more than what we "think" that it is, whatever seems right to us in the moment/in our own eyes
Possible, as He commands us to do just that in regard to the Scriptures themselves, which includes continually deepening our knowledge and understanding of Him/His word/the faith, yes .. e.g. 2 Timothy 2:15?
As far as the Book of Job goes, which Chapter/Verse are you referring to
We can gain knowledge from MANY different sources about all kinds of different things, of course, but what we cannot do is seek to learn and teach new truths about God ~apart~ from the truth that He has already revealed to us because, as the Bible tells us, He never changes/is the same yesterday, today and forever .. e.g. Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17. So, if we think that we may have discovered something "new" (about Him or about anything else in the Bible), the first place that we need to turn to 'is' the Bible, because that which we believe may be some sort of "new" truth must not contradict the truths that God has already taught us in the Scriptures.
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
Matthew 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
.
God has provided us with the testimony of His Son and His appointed twelve. Everything pertaining to salvation and living a godly life can be found in them.
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things," Hebrews 1:1-2
That doesn't mean we can't learn from anything other than the scriptures, but it won't hold the same authority as scripture. Personally, I believe genuine revelation from the Holy Spirit involves giving us a better understanding of scripture, not of things that aren't in scripture.
I would make an argument for scripture here and say any revelation about God should be able to be double checked (fact checked) with scripture.
Otherwise, you have people using their "intellects" and imaginations to define God in the name of "revelation". Like some of the cults have done.
God Bless You!
Grandpa
The scriptures reveal it in a way that you have to search for it for understanding.The reason why the heavens declare the glory of God is because like all things both seen and unseen consist through/by him (Colossians 1:16-20)and he brings all things unto himself through the blood of his cross.
By knowledge of knowing he brings us unto himself by spirit,water,and the blood,a greater revelation is revealed that all things were created through the spirit,water and the blood.
And we can say this is truth because when God created all things he spoke it into existence.The word of God is in all things,which is how he brings all things unto himself, and how they declare the Glory of God the same way we do by spirit,water,and the blood.
If this is true then all things are alive in some way since by spirit,water,and the blood there is life.
PSALM 19:3
There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
The tabernacle for the sun is the moon, and the earth which represent the water and the blood.The sun is spirit.
The suns rays reflect off the face of the moon like the spirit of God's brightness reflected off the face of Moses and fades in the same way as day approaches.
The sun itself brings light to the earth.By it life is possible.
It gives up it's own life to do so.Who does that sound like?
Science says that life comes from the death of stars.
All this is only possible because God spoke it through his word.
The earth is the blood.Jesus came to shed his blood on the earth.
PSALM 19:4
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun.
I have a blog with random revelations mostly on spirit,water,and the blood if you're interested in the topic.Sorry it's kind of all over the place.
By knowledge of knowing he brings us unto himself by spirit,water,and the blood,a greater revelation is revealed that all things were created through the spirit,water and the blood.
And we can say this is truth because when God created all things he spoke it into existence.The word of God is in all things,which is how he brings all things unto himself, and how they declare the Glory of God the same way we do by spirit,water,and the blood.
If this is true then all things are alive in some way since by spirit,water,and the blood there is life.
PSALM 19:3
There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
The tabernacle for the sun is the moon, and the earth which represent the water and the blood.The sun is spirit.
The suns rays reflect off the face of the moon like the spirit of God's brightness reflected off the face of Moses and fades in the same way as day approaches.
The sun itself brings light to the earth.By it life is possible.
It gives up it's own life to do so.Who does that sound like?
Science says that life comes from the death of stars.
All this is only possible because God spoke it through his word.
The earth is the blood.Jesus came to shed his blood on the earth.
PSALM 19:4
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun.
I have a blog with random revelations mostly on spirit,water,and the blood if you're interested in the topic.Sorry it's kind of all over the place.
Please look seek, to find out this love of God for everyone. Please stop and see to not be impulsive over thought(s) of others or even self thought one gets, what?
Matthew 10:16-20 be wise as a serpent, yet remain harmless as a dove
You see another doing wrong and you know that person is. So you go to that person and rebuke that person. Galatians 6:1-9
Please see let others be. Yet share Father's love knowledge Father shares. Be respectful of others in all have free choice. So do not kick, knock down, beset, or steal you will kill others? Is that not what is still today going on between people?
What overcame evil, what overcomes evil?
Jesus did. by the love he continued to share of Father's love for us all, since day one in not killing Adam the first or eve either.
Then goes to that cross without any fight back. And we can't see this and trust Father to teach us how to do the same, even if others try or even kill us too?
Willing is what Daddy, Father, PaPa seeks John 4:23-24, will you go to Father in prayer and be willing too? Then you will become new thanks to Father an son for you.
Now see Romans 14:1-4, 2:1-4 thank you let trust God, go to your own prayer closet and discuss it all with God to hear truth over error, which might take a while to hear the answer. I know that has happened to me. done praying. Days, weeks pass and I hear the answer and go Ah! I have an Ah Ha moment, anyone else?
Hello Rewriter, I think that this statement of yours (taken as written anyway) is a truism (atheists and deists being the exception, of course).
I've been a Christian for a little over 40 years now and I've never heard anyone make that particular claim before (whether in person or out here in online Christendom). The principal reason for that is due to what the Scriptures themselves teach us (about the many ways that He both has & continues to reveal Himself to us), as you already pointed out for us .. Psalm 19:1-4 (Romans 2:14-15 speaks of another kind of "general" revelation that all human beings are privy to, just FYI).
Is that what Romans 1:20 actually tells us (that ~all~ that may be known about God is revealed in His Creation)
Romans 120 Since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
General revelation tells us that God exists, and it also reveals (to a certain degree anyway) what He is like and what He expects of us (by giving us an innate sense of right and wrong/good and evil, for instance), but there are MANY important matters that it cannot reveal to us, such as the way of salvation, for instance, as only God's special revelation is capable of doing that for us .. e.g. Acts 4:12.
This is true, but only to a degree, because no matter how reasonable, rational & intelligent our minds may be, we cannot learn or be sure of anything about God apart from the knowledge that He has revealed to us about Himself (knowledge that has now been inscripturated for us in the Bible, OT and New).
Without it (inscripturated special revelation, that is), most of what we know about Him would be based upon little more than conjecture, and the "truth" would most often amount to nothing more than what we "think" that it is, whatever seems right to us in the moment/in our own eyes
Possible, as He commands us to do just that in regard to the Scriptures themselves, which includes continually deepening our knowledge and understanding of Him/His word/the faith, yes .. e.g. 2 Timothy 2:15?
As far as the Book of Job goes, which Chapter/Verse are you referring to
We can gain knowledge from MANY different sources about all kinds of different things, of course, but what we cannot do is seek to learn and teach new truths about God ~apart~ from the truth that He has already revealed to us because, as the Bible tells us, He never changes/is the same yesterday, today and forever .. e.g. Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17. So, if we think that we may have discovered something "new" (about Him or about anything else in the Bible), the first place that we need to turn to 'is' the Bible, because that which we believe may be some sort of "new" truth must not contradict the truths that God has already taught us in the Scriptures.
God bless you!!
~Deuteronomy
Matthew 2435 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. .
We largely agree. What I see as the problem is when something supported by available evidence, but which contradicts common understanding of what scripture says, how do we react? There is available evidence that suggests various common Christian beliefs are inaccurate, and it includes evidence from scriptures that implies that scriptures were changed, that is, John seems to have two endings, and Mark is known to have four. How do we reconcile?
Hello Rewriter, please give us a web address/addresses that point us to the article(s) that support the various things that you are saying above.
Thanks
~Deuteronomy
Psa 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
This does not have anything to do with understanding the Bible and prophesy.
This is not aimed at the saints but at the world that does not believe.
Creation testifies there is a God and of His attributes that He is powerful, intelligent, and love for He provided food, and the means to make clothing and shelter.
And testify of the 2 greatest laws love God and love people.
So the world is without excuse to not believe in a God who is love and to love people.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Hello Rewriter, please give us a web address/addresses that point us to the article(s) that support the various things that you are saying above.
Thanks
~Deuteronomy
Okay, here are a few.
Mark
Endings of Mark
The Ending of Mark’s Gospel
There are four possible endings to Mark’s Gospel presented to us in the Greek manuscripts. The best evidence is that the original ending of Mark 16 after verse 8 has been lost. We do not know how…
thimblefulloftheology.com
The Two Endings of John
A sermon about the two endings of John and how the Gospel doesn’t really end, but continues to be written in our lives.
wherethewind.com
Michael Martin, «A Note on the Two Endings of John» biblica, Vol. 87 (2006) 523-525 page 523
This note argues that rhetorical canons supply new evidence for the thesis that the Fourth Gospel has two endings, the original (20,30-31) and one that was added later (21,25). Citing Neyrey.s and Müller.s studies of the Fourth Gospel.s use of encomiastic topics in its description of Jesus, the...
www.bsw.org
Note, I am staying away from some evidence that takes more knowledge than is commonly available that addresses other points. But might I suggest looking into the "Asiatic Vespers" (notice how many non-Romans liked Rome) or the "Battle of Carrhae", especially its aftermath lasting for another 16 years) both of which are "clearly irrelevant" if you follow tradition, but both of which can begin to supply knowledge that allows other problems to be recognized. Josephus's accounts of what happened with Antipas are also insightful as are comments by Justin Martyr (early 2nd century, Tertullian (late 2nd century/early 3rd) and at least one other. but while this third individual might be mentioned in passing in seminary, there is clearly no reason to bother to read what he wrote (5th century), one small part is clearly fiction (clearly late 2nd or 3rd century origins and included in a copy) and the balance of it challenges tradition even as it fits history (claiming a 30's 1st century source), that is not challenged, even by tradition with one minor exception (a couple paragraphs that fits with Justin and Tertullian but "obviously" cannot possibly be true) that fits historically but not with tradition.
If you only look at what tradition approves, you will only see support for tradition. But if you look at the unapproved, you need to dig enough to find out if it is or is not true.
Now if you want a fuller list, the bibliography for my writing is currently about 25 pages, roughly a third associated with the Bible, a third with history and a third with science. Do you really want to read all that ?